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  1. #1
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    Question "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    I love a lot of things about different accent & this is my favourite.
    In some British English accent, some speakers tend to add the sound of "t" in between the sound of "s/sh" and "n".
    Few examples:
    Finance: faI.n@nts
    Chance: chA:nts
    Pension: pent.S(sh)@n
    Tense: tents
    Sense: sents
    and so on.
    I wonder why this is not the case with the word "tension" though, as it can be seen here http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...ey=81956&ph=on
    Does the sound of "t" REALLY miss from between "n" and "s" sound in the word "tension" OR is it merely the case of this dictionary simply missing the mention of "t" sound.

  2. #2
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    Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    You're right. It's an error. There should be a [t] there.

    [t] in tension isn't here but it's here.

    All the best.

  3. #3
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    Exclamation Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    You're right. It's an error. There should be a [t] there.
    [t] in tension isn't here but it's here.
    All the best.
    Interesting & thanks for that.

    At least, I won't have to rely on ANY rules as where it occurs and where not & can be rest assured that it ALWAYS occurs between "n" and "s/sh" sound.

  4. #4
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    Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    You're welcome, j4mes.

    Oh, I know what you mean about "ANY rules". That "pen[t]sion" had [t] had me wondering why "ten[t]sion" didn't. After all, they are minimal pairs, right?

    To err is human.

    Have you contacted or thought about contacting the site to let them know about the misprint?

  5. #5
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    Exclamation Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    You're welcome, j4mes.
    Oh, I know what you mean about "ANY rules". That "pen[t]sion" had [t] had me wondering why "ten[t]sion" didn't. After all, they are minimal pairs, right?
    To err is human.
    Have you contacted or thought about contacting the site to let them know about the misprint?
    As you can imagine, lesser the rules to remember, better the learning process :D

    Some of the rules that I feel less comfortable with are:

    >> identifying the exact sound of "th" in any words, as I'm torn between "T" (capital "T" as in "think") and sound of "D" (capital "d" as in "brother") or very often with "t" (small "t") as in "Thomas" or "Thames"
    >> the rules about sounds in French words or French language, since without knowing the pronunciation, you couldn't possibly make yourself understood.

    By the way, I'm afraid the link isn't working.

  6. #6
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    Exclamation Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    You're welcome, j4mes.
    Oh, I know what you mean about "ANY rules". That "pen[t]sion" had [t] had me wondering why "ten[t]sion" didn't. After all, they are minimal pairs, right?
    To err is human.
    Have you contacted or thought about contacting the site to let them know about the misprint?
    I just came across the phonetics of "insane". Wouldn't you say it should have its phonetics as:

    Int.seIn rather than In.seIn

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...ey=40974&ph=on

  7. #7
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    Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Ah, but insane doesn't fit the mo(u)ld.

    <c> is pronounced [ts]; <s> is pronounced [tsh]
    (origin, Old & Middle French)
    finance, finan[ts]e
    chance, chan[ts]e
    sense, sen[ts] *Old French sens
    pension, pen[tsh]ion
    tension, ten[tsh]ion

    in+sane < Latin in- prefix "not"
    in+ception < Latin in- prefix "in, on"
    in+stant < Old French in- prefix "in"

  8. #8
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    Exclamation Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    Ah, but insane doesn't fit the mo(u)ld.

    <c> is pronounced [ts]; <s> is pronounced [tsh]
    (origin, Old & Middle French)
    finance, finan[ts]e
    chance, chan[ts]e
    sense, sen[ts] *Old French sens
    pension, pen[tsh]ion
    tension, ten[tsh]ion

    in+sane < Latin in- prefix "not"
    in+ception < Latin in- prefix "in, on"
    in+stant < Old French in- prefix "in"
    So, generally speaking, if "in" is used as prefix in examples such as "insane, inception or instant", it would be an exception to this "rule" i.e. NOT having "t" sound between "n" and "s" sounds.

    Interesting thing to know, for sure.

    Any idea of other words that are an exceptions to this rule, other than these 3 ???

  9. #9
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    Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Quote Originally Posted by j4mes_bond25
    So, generally speaking, if "in" is used as prefix in examples such as "insane, inception or instant", it would be an exception to this "rule" i.e. NOT having "t" sound between "n" and "s" sounds.
    Well, the difference is position. Below, epenthetic [t] sits at the end of the word; more specifically, it sits in the coda of a syllable. (The symbol # represents a syllable boundary)

    tense = te[nts]
    sense = se[nts]
    chance = cha[nts]
    finance = fi#na[nts]
    pen#sion = pe[nt]#sion
    ten#sion = te[nt]#sion

    Adding [t] has to do with the ease of articulation. Articulating [n] then moving to [s], [sh] produces a [t] sound, an epenthetic consonant that shares place of articular with [n].

    fi#na[ns] => fi#na[nts]
    pen#sion => pe[nt]#sion

    As for the exceptions, "insane", "inception", and "instant", [n] and [s] are separated by a syllable boundary, but they are also separated by a morpheme boundary (_). [n] belongs to the coda of the first morpheme, and [s] belongs to the onset of the second morpheme:

    in_sane
    in_ception
    in_stant

    Now, I don't know if that's the reason speakers don't appear to insert [t] in that environment, but it stands to reason, especially given that speakers know that in-, alone, is a separate morpheme. That is, sane, ception, and stant don't have to be productive morphemes.

    Note, and here's a rather surprising twist. Even though I do not pronounce the words below with epenthetic [t] (I speak a North American dialect of English), I do, in fact, pronounce one of the exceptions, "instant", with [t], in[t]#stant. What irony. The reason ... I can explain later if you'd like. This post is too long already. ;-D

    tense = te[ns]
    sense = se[ns]
    chance = cha[ns]
    finance = fi#na[ns]
    pen#sion = pe[n]#sion
    ten#sion = te[n]#sion

    All the best.
    Last edited by Casiopea; 29-May-2006 at 20:59.

  10. #10
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    Exclamation Re: "t" sound bewteen sound of "n" and "s/sh".

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    I speak a North American dialect of English), I do, in fact, pronounce one of the exceptions, "instant", with [t], in[t]#stant. What irony. The reason ... I can explain later if you'd like. #
    I thought such an additional "t" was only a part of British English. But it seems the same goes for North American accent, as well then ???

    By the way, does this "t" in between "n" and "s" sound a part of RP accent or is it seen as a part of "posh" English ???

    Lastly, speaking of "posh" English, RP and Plummy are seen as "posh" in Britain. What is the equivalent there in North America ??? In the same way, Hugh Grant is associated with "posh" plummy accent. Who would be the equivalent "posh" speaking celeb in North America ???

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