Direct/Indirect Speech

[taruns1008]

#1 The principal said," why didn't you attend the flag hoisting ceremony, Arjun ?"

Answer 1: The principal asked Anuj why he hadn't attended the flag hoisting ceremony. (My answer)

Answer 2: The principal asked Anuj why he didn't attend the flag hoisting ceremony. (Book answer)

I read a rule saying we change past simple in Past perfect tense. Then Why in this particular example it doesn't follow this rule. (According to Book my answer is wrong).

#2 I shall remain here and the tailor won't be able to find me," said she.

Answer 1: She said that she would remain there and the tailor would not find her.(my answer)

Answer 2: She said that she should remain there and the tailor would not find her. (book answer)

We use "shall" with first person pronoun and "will" with second and third person pronoun. Then why my answer is incorrect?

Is it true that we always use "shall" in interrogative sentences?

 

[emsr2d2]

I agree with the book for the first example. Indirect speech should, where possible, match the direct speech. I disagree with the book's second answer.

 

[taruns1008]

I agree with the book for the first example. Indirect speech should, where possible, match the direct speech.

Sorry but, I didn't understand what do you mean? How can we find when we have to change "past simple" into "past perfect" and when we not?

 

[Matthew Wai]

How can we find when we have to change "past simple" into "past perfect" and when we not?

'It is not necessary to backshift past tenses when the meaning is clear.'── quoted from https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...hen-she-LEFT?p=1181413&viewfull=1#post1181413

The following is an example where backshift is not necessary because the meaning is clear.

Cindy said, "The sun was shining when I left."
Cindy said that the sun was shining when she left.
── quoted from the same thread.

 

[Matthew Wai]

He said, 'I had a weird dream recently.'
He said he had a weird dream recently.

I think backshift is not necessary above because the meaning is clear.

I don't agree with ems. I think that backshifting is (almost) always correct ...

If I have understood her post correctly, she didn't say that backshifting was not correct.

 

[taruns1008]

Can I conclude that Both version (with past simple and past perfect) are always correct? And we consider exam point of view and are given both option (as given in my #1), which answer should we choose?

 

[bhaisahab]

He said, 'I had a weird dream recently.'
He said he had a weird dream recently.

I think backshift is not necessary above because the meaning is clear.

I think you are wrong. I think it should be "He said that he'd had..."

 

[emsr2d2]

I'd like to clarify my previous answer. I'm one of those people who equates "shall" with "will". For me, both of them backshift to "would". I only use "should" for obligation.

She said "I will go to the party."
She said she would go to the party.

She said "I shall go to the party."
She said she would go to the party.

 

[taruns1008]

Everyone is saying here that if meaning is clear we don't back shift generally. What does this mean "meaning is clear"? I think every sentence has meaning and we can express it in different style. Can you example a sentence where "meaning is not clear" and we have to back shift?

PS* I am non native. So it's not easy for me to understand. But I am trying best to get what you all are explaining.

 

[Matthew Wai]

Can you example a sentence where "meaning is not clear" and we have to back shift?

Please read bhaisahab's post#9, a response to the sentences in my post#6.

What does this mean "meaning is clear"?

Is the following meaning clear so that backshift is not necessary?
He said, 'I had a weird dream after seeing a horror movie.'
He said he had a weird dream after seeing a horror movie.

PS* I am non native. So it's not easy for me to understand. But I am trying best to get what you all are explaining.

So am I.

 

[taruns1008]

Please read bhaisahab's post#9, a response to the sentences in my post#6.

What I have understand is that in your sentence (He said, 'I had a weird dream after seeing a horror movie.) It specify the timing of event so we don't need to back shift. But in sentence (He said, 'I had a weird dream recently.') it doesn't specify the timing of event so, need of back shifting rise.

 

[Peedeebee]

There are at least 2 background points here; about will/shall and would/should; also a point about the word "had".
Please don't think I am trying to answer the total thread in one go- but I hope these points may be helpful...

Will/shall is concerning 1st person/ 3rd person, yes; but when you use would/should the 2 words have their own meanings too.
Would- means the person has the intention to do something. Should - means the person is being made to do something/told to do something/thinks the ought to do something (eg: to obey the law). So when these meanings come into it the idea of 1st person/3rd person is not the only idea.
(so- back to the start of the thread- it is possible that "she should remain" because there was a rule telling her to remain...... )

(Apologies to ems- I've just seen page 2 of the thread & you have mentioned obligation already....)

Had- the example about the dream, above, is complex because the word "had" means possessed... the dream was mine... The word "had" also forms that kind of past tense (What do we call it now? I always called it plu-perfect....)

 

[Matthew Wai]

What I have understand is that in your sentence (He said, 'I had a weird dream after seeing a horror movie.) It specify the timing of event so we don't need to back shift.

So far, no teachers have indicated whether the indirect speech without backshift in my post#13 above is correct.

 

[Peedeebee]

Hi Matthew ; I'll try to make some more points hoping they might be helpful..
bhisahab has said that you need the back shift tense "had"... or " 'd" . There are some different opinions on this thread; I think it shows that the indirect speech question is really difficult. One feature may be that when we speak we are less accurate than when we write or study.
As another member says, exam boards have differing opinions.
Also in this thread I think it has got confusing because the dream example is about the verb "had" (a dream) .
What about using another example, say- " He said "I sent a letter after seeing a movie." " Now change it into indirect speech and try it out with other people, perhaps verbally and in writing. See if the results are clearly understood..
He said he sent a letter after the movie./ He said that he sent a letter after the movie./ He said he had (he'd) sent a letter after the movie./

There is another aspect of the word "had" in English usage too. We use it to provide emphasis as well as using it to form a past tense.
" I sent it."
"No, you hadn't sent it!"
"Yes, I had sent it- I clearly remember going to the post office!"

or .... "He said he sent it; yes really, he said he had sent it"
I'm not trying to be too precise here, but I think it shows that we have many shades of meaning, especially in spoken English, which perhaps explains why you can get so many different opinions.
Back to your #16 question- it seems that the back shift can sometimes be necessary, and sometimes not.

 

[MikeNewYork]

Matthew, it works for me without the backshift.