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  1. #21
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    Exclamation Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    But I just use Lucida Sans Unicode. It doesn't give you everything in the IPA world, but I've (so far) never had any trouble with transcribing English phonemes. (I've downloaded the real thing, but stopped using it here.)
    Of course, Lucida Sans Unicode isn't as common as Arial, but most modern PCs have it.
    Thanks
    b
    I never tried Lucida Sans Unicode font, but having tried it now, I'm afraid, it doesn't give you IPA font, at all. It simply shows the character the way it gets show in Times New Roman or Arial, I fear (except the little "style" difference, course).

  2. #22
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    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Smile Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by j4mes_bond25 View Post
    I never tried Lucida Sans Unicode font, but having tried it now, I'm afraid, it doesn't give you IPA font, at all. It simply shows the character the way it gets show in Times New Roman or Arial, I fear (except the little "style" difference, course).
    If you just use the keyboard, yes. It's a bit of a sweat, but if you use the Character Map it gives you access to more symbols than either of those two.

    b

  3. #23
    Lenka is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by j4mes_bond25 View Post
    Pleasure.

    Yes, "ment" is ALWAYS (I'm not aware of any "exception" as yet) pronounced with schwa (@) when used as suffix.

    So far, I'm only aware of "Armful" being the only exception where "ful" is pronounced NOT as "f@l" but instead as "fUl".

    Another important suffix that are used with "schwa" @ includes:

    >> "man" (normally pronounce as "m{n") as in ......... fireman, statesman, huntman, Englishman, etc.
    >> "ward" (normally pronounce as "wO:d/wA:d") as in ......... upward, Edward, inward, outward, etc.

    Depending on the amount of your interest so far, you might like to know that the schwa in "ful" (useful, hopeful, etc.) are often NOT pronounced at all & instead 2 consonant (1 occuring BEFORE schwa & 1 occuring AFTER schwa) are pronounced together.

    For example,

    >> useful, instead of "ju:z.f@l" becomes "ju:z.fl"
    >> hopeful, instead of "EMAIL REMOVED - Send PM to This User Instead@l" becomes "EMAIL REMOVED - Send PM to This User Instead"

    This is because 4 consonants are classified as "syllabic consonants". These are "n", "r", "l", "m". This means any schwa appearing BEFORE them could be given a miss in pronouncing. Hence:

    >> bottom, instead of becoming "bOt.@m" (which is ALSO right) .... becomes "bOt.m"
    >> risen, instead of becoming "rIz.@n" (which is ALSO right) ....... becomes "rIz.n" (same goes for "listen or soften" but NOT in "London or Hampton")
    >> tunnel, instead of becoming "tVn.@l" (which is ALSO right) ..... becomes "tVn.l"
    >> history, instead of becoming "hIs.t@.ri" (which is ALSO right) ...... becomes "hIs.tri"

    Some uses "schwa" while some don't. I personally prefer the pronouncing it using this rule of "syllabic consonant" i.e. WITHOUT using "schwa".

    Soooooooooo, a LOT goes in the world of "Phonetics", as you can see. But overall, it's all fun & games ;)
    Oooh... thank you for mentioning the -man and -ward! I hadn't known it before!

    As to the syllabic consonants, are there some words in English that consist only of consonants?
    In Czech, there are quite many word "ztvrdl", "strč prst skrz krk" etc. However, are there any in English? I guess there are; I just don't know any :).

  4. #24
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    Exclamation Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenka View Post
    Oooh... thank you for mentioning the -man and -ward! I hadn't known it before!

    As to the syllabic consonants, are there some words in English that consist only of consonants?

    In Czech, there are quite many word "ztvrdl", "strč prst skrz krk" etc. However, are there any in English? I guess there are; I just don't know any :).
    How do we DEFINE vowel ??? It's usually defined in 2 different ways. It's either a "letter" or "sound". This means:

    >> if it's a "vowel letter" then it's ONLY 5 i.e. "a, e, i, o, u (and, at times, "y")

    >> if it's a "vowel sound" then it's @ (as in "about"), e (as in "bet"), I (as in "it"), i: (as in "eat"), 3: (as in "hurt"), o (as in "hot"), O: (as in "sort"), U (as in "put"), u: (as in "move").

    Now, in the context of "phonetics", which is to do with "sounds", there's NO NO word in English which has got NO vowel "sound". However, you may consider "words" like: "Hmm", "Mmm", "Shhhhh", "Psst", etc. to be the once that's NO vowel sound in it.

    At the same time, in the context of JUST "words", then in English language, there're few words that NO vowel "letter" in it. These include:

    >> crwth (a Welsh musical intrument)
    >> sky (however, don't forget that "y" COULD BE considered as "vowel", at times)
    >> rhythm
    >> crypt
    >> lynx

    Hope that was helpful.

  5. #25
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: -less

    I have seen people make a case for nth as one without a vowel letter. (The nth degree, etc)

  6. #26
    Lenka is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by j4mes_bond25 View Post
    How do we DEFINE vowel ??? It's usually defined in 2 different ways. It's either a "letter" or "sound". This means:

    >> if it's a "vowel letter" then it's ONLY 5 i.e. "a, e, i, o, u (and, at times, "y")

    >> if it's a "vowel sound" then it's @ (as in "about"), e (as in "bet"), I (as in "it"), i: (as in "eat"), 3: (as in "hurt"), o (as in "hot"), O: (as in "sort"), U (as in "put"), u: (as in "move").

    Now, in the context of "phonetics", which is to do with "sounds", there's NO NO word in English which has got NO vowel "sound". However, you may consider "words" like: "Hmm", "Mmm", "Shhhhh", "Psst", etc. to be the once that's NO vowel sound in it.

    At the same time, in the context of JUST "words", then in English language, there're few words that NO vowel "letter" in it. These include:

    >> crwth (a Welsh musical intrument)
    >> sky (however, don't forget that "y" COULD BE considered as "vowel", at times)
    >> rhythm
    >> crypt
    >> lynx

    Hope that was helpful.

    Thank you for your explanation! It is really helpful!
    Anyway, "y" isn't considered a vowel?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenka View Post
    Thank you for your explanation! It is really helpful!
    Anyway, "y" isn't considered a vowel?
    Y is a vowel when it has a vowel sound. It is a consonant when it has a consonant sound.

  8. #28
    Lenka is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork View Post
    Y is a vowel when it has a vowel sound. It is a consonant when it has a consonant sound.
    In what cases does it have the consonant sound, then?

  9. #29
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    Exclamation Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenka View Post
    Thank you for your explanation! It is really helpful!
    Anyway, "y" isn't considered a vowel?
    I'm afraid, "y" is a "special case", in the word of "Phonetics".

    In the following words "y" is seen as a "Consonant":

    >> Yank
    >> Yellow
    >> Yield
    >> Yo

    However, for the following words, "y" is considered to be as "Vowel sound" (representing EITHER "I" OR "i" sound):

    >> rhythm (I)
    >> activity (i)
    >> pity (i)

  10. #30
    Lenka is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: -less

    Quote Originally Posted by j4mes_bond25 View Post
    I'm afraid, "y" is a "special case", in the word of "Phonetics".

    In the following words "y" is seen as a "Consonant":

    >> Yank
    >> Yellow
    >> Yield
    >> Yo

    However, for the following words, "y" is considered to be as "Vowel sound" (representing EITHER "I" OR "i" sound):

    >> rhythm (I)
    >> activity (i)
    >> pity (i)
    Thank you! I believe I do understand it now.
    Y is considered a consonant if it is connected with aother vowel in the word (=> /j/ )
    On the other hand, it is considered a vowel if it is pronounced as "I" or "i".

    What is it if it's pronounce d as /ai/? E.g. in the words "my, sky, dry" etc.?
    What about "dye"?

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