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  1. #11
    Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Thanks Casiopea. This topic is indeed more complex than we think. Another idea just occurred to me is: philosophically and perhaps linguistically BE and HAVe are related more closely than it is evident on the surface. I personally believe HAVE sprung from BE. The existential there is/are reflects what you have: There are two chairs in the room. The room has got two windows. The meaning is the same. What's the time please? Have you got the time please?

    No wonder both there and their are even pronounced the same. It's can be it is or it has.... I have been reflecting much on this issue. Human language is imbued with BE and HAVE. E-Prime advocates dropping BE from use because it is not objective.
    Last edited by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim; 08-Feb-2007 at 19:11.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Obviously, I'm not up to your standards in the English language but permit me to note that, having read what you posted I couldn't help thinking about certain phrases in Italian and English in which be and have are interchangeable.
    'Ho fame', which, literally translated, would be 'I have hunger' becomes 'I am hungry', 'Ho sete' 'I am thirsty', 'Ho freddo' 'I am cold', 'Ho caldo' 'I am hot'

  3. #13
    Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Indeed this is true of other languages as well. French or German in comparison with English:
    Ich habe Geburtstag: it is my birthday today
    J'ai faim: I am hungry

    Some other languages like Russian (I am not sure) and Arabic can do without BE or HAVE. Prepositions make up for them.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim View Post
    I personally believe HAVE sprung from BE.
    So they say,
    O.E. habban "to own, possess,"
    I have a book is a shift from older languages, where the thing possessed was made the subject and the possessor took the dative case (e.g. Latin est mihi liber "I have a book," lit. "there is to me a book"). Used as an auxiliary in O.E., too (esp. to form present perfect tense); the word has taken on more functions over time; Online Etymology Dictionary
    In French, some expressions that require "to be" in English must use avoir in French. For example, the French do not say "I am 21 years old." Instead they say, "I have 21 years." It is the same thing with "I am hungry." Instead, they say, "I have hunger." Here are some of these expressions:

    • avoir x ans = to be x years old
      Ex. Vous avez treinte ans. = You are thirty years old.
    • avoir faim = to be hungry
      Ex. J'ai faim. = I am hungry.
    • avoir soif = to be thirsty
      Ex. Nous avons soif. = We are thirsty.
    • avoir peur = to be afraid
      Ex. Tu as peur de l'eau. = You are afraid of the water.
    • avoir honte = to be ashamed
      Ex. Elle a honte d'être vue toute nue. = She is ashamed to be seen naked.
    • avoir froid = to be cold
      Ex. Son père a froid. = Her father is cold.
    • avoir chaud = to be hot
      Ex. J'ai chaud pendant l'été. = I am hot during the summer.
    Many languages use an adjective just as English, some languages use other strategies,

    adjective: English, Danish, Czech, Lithuanian, Urdu, (Norwegian)
    Romany, Turkish, Welsh (?! 'newynawl' or 'newynawg').

    verb ('He hungers'): Plains Miwok (California)

    abstract noun as object ('I have hunger'): Romance (French, Italian,
    Spanish), German, Albanian, ('I feel hunger'): Hausa

    prepositional phrase (abstract noun subject, perceiver in 'locational'
    PP) ('Hunger is on me'): Celtic (Irish, Breton, but not Welsh?).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim
    The existential there is/are reflects what you have: There are two chairs in the room. The room has got two windows. The meaning is the same. What's the time please? Have you got the time please?[/
    Mind you, 'there' isn't a verb. The key is more likely in the semantics of possess: 1483, "to hold, occupy, reside in" (without regard to ownership). To exist (to be), existence (there), to possess (to hold, occupy, reside; later extended to have. Cf. avoir in French)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim
    No wonder both there and their are even pronounced the same.
    Hmm. They have different origins though: there, their. How do we get around that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim
    It's can be it is or it has....
    Are these the same in English though, it has 12 and it is 12? And are they possible in, say, French? No. So, how do we get around that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim
    I have been reflecting much on this issue. Human language is imbued with BE and HAVE. E-Prime advocates dropping BE from use because it is not objective.
    Could you expand here. I'm kind of lost.

    All the best.

  5. #15
    Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    For E-prime just click on the link below.
    E-Prime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    There are two chairs in the room. The room has got two windows. The meaning is the same.
    I don't see the meaning as being the same.

    "There are two chairs in the room" means there is a room, and coincidentally there are two chairs in it.

    "The room has got two windows." This means the room possesses two windows. The two windows are part of the room, they are integral to the room.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim View Post
    For E-prime just click on the link below.
    E-Prime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Alas, I do not have access to Wicked-o-pedia. I live in China.

  8. #18
    Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehead View Post
    I don't see the meaning as being the same.
    "There are two chairs in the room" means there is a room, and coincidentally there are two chairs in it.
    "The room has got two windows." This means the room possesses two windows. The two windows are part of the room, they are integral to the room.
    Yes, that's true the windows are part of the room whereas the chairs can be moved. Still both of them share the idea of possession. My focus is: they are semantically related. This is perhaps why some languages use BE while others HAVE to express possession.
    Last edited by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim; 11-Feb-2007 at 13:17.

  9. #19
    Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    Alas, I do not have access to Wicked-o-pedia. I live in China.
    Hi Casiopea
    Maybe there is some justification not to use Wikipedia but you can always check what is written there. Do you have any reservations? and why are you not able to access it from China? Try the following link:
    E-Prime
    Best
    Jamshid

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    Alas, I do not have access to Wicked-o-pedia. I live in China.
    Really? I used to live in Shanghai (2003/2004) and I could get Wikipedia from there.


    Yes, that's true the windows are part of the room whereas the chairs can be moved. Still both of them share the idea of possession.
    I don't see a possession idea in saying 'there are two chairs in the room', but I do in 'the room has two chairs'.

    If I am talking about something I posses I would use 'have', not 'be'. 'I have two books' means they are mine. 'There are two books' means they exist, but I have no idea, or don't care, who they belong to.

    'Be' and 'have' may be semantically related in some languages - I don't speak any other language well enough to comment - but I don't think they are in English, and the differing etymology of the two verbs supports this.

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