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    #21

    Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Anything which is existential inevitably involves the idea of possession. BTW the two verbs are the only verbs which can help to form complex tenses like continuous and perfect. The idea of possession and existence in such tenses is then suppressed or is in the background.


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    #22

    Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim View Post
    Anything which is existential inevitably involves the idea of possession. BTW the two verbs are the only verbs which can help to form complex tenses like continuous and perfect. The idea of possession and existence in such tenses is then suppressed or is in the background.
    I am not sure that existential has to involve possession, something can exist - be - without being possessed - had. The obverse may be true, that possession implies existence.

    I would be interested in your line of reasoning that led to that conclusion, it is an intriguing idea.

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    #23

    Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehead View Post
    I would be interested in your line of reasoning that led to that conclusion, it is an intriguing idea.
    It is indeed an intrigung hypothesis. You should note this is what I believe in based on such observations and comaprisons with other langauges. You need to approach it philosophically and linguistically:

    1. The same idea can be conveyed:
    She has several friends in China: There are several friends of hers in China
    I have two buttons missing: There arte two buttons missing on my coat-
    They had a few supporters helping them: there were a few supporters helping them
    2. Some languages opt for HAVE while others for BE when expressing the same ideas like age, birthday...
    3. BE and HAVE are the only "verbs" used in forming complex tenses like continuous and perfect. Their original meaning is suppressed then.
    4. BE and HAVE enjoy the highest frequency in many languages because the idea of existence and possession are so central. Some languages do without them ie prepositions fill the gap because the meaning is implied in deep structure.
    5. TO BE and To Have are controversial. Have being possessive and BE self-centred as advocated by E-Prime. You might also read "hopless" an article I wrote in Poertry and prose section.
    Last edited by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim; 11-Feb-2007 at 16:07.


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    #24

    Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim View Post
    It is indeed an intrigung hypothesis. You should note this is what I believe in based on such observations and comaprisons with other langauges. You need to approach it philosophically and linguistically:
    1. The same idea can be conveyed:
    She has several friends in China: There are several friends of hers in China
    I have two buttons missing: There arte two buttons missing on my coat-
    They had a few supporters helping them: there were a few supporters helping them
    2. Some languages opt for HAVE while others for BE when expressing the same ideas like age, birthday...
    3. BE and HAVE are the only "verbs" used in forming complex tenses like continuous and perfect. Their original meaning is suppressed then.
    4. BE and HAVE enjoy the highest frequency in many languages because the idea of existence and possession are so central. Some languages do without them ie prepositions fill the gap.
    5. TO BE and To Have are controversial. Have being possessive and BE self-centred as advocated by E-Prime.

    Philosophically I can do, linguistically takes some work - my field is literature..

    Looking at those sentences, in the 'be' sentences the possession idea is moved to possessive pronouns - her friends in China, buttons on my coat - except in the third example where the possession idea is missing and they were being helped by unattached supporters - no 'their'.This indicates that it is not the 'be' verb carrying the possession idea. In the 'have' sentences, the possessive pronoun is missing as the possession idea is carried in the 'have' verb,

    It may be different in other languages, but that may be as much to do with translation as with anything else- translation is inevitably to the nearest equivalent rather than precise.

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    #25

    Re: Is 'there exists....' native?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehead View Post
    Philosophically I can do, linguistically takes some work - my field is literature..

    Looking at those sentences, in the 'be' sentences the possession idea is moved to possessive pronouns - her friends in China, buttons on my coat - except in the third example where the possession idea is missing and they were being helped by unattached supporters - no 'their'.This indicates that it is not the 'be' verb carrying the possession idea. In the 'have' sentences, the possessive pronoun is missing as the possession idea is carried in the 'have' verb,

    It may be different in other languages, but that may be as much to do with translation as with anything else- translation is inevitably to the nearest equivalent rather than precise.

    Thanks God Andrew language is never precise. It would have lost its ambiguity and superiority. We wouldn't have been able to make jokes, write literature and make thousands other ambiguous statements. I like your translation idea. If you take it more broadely everything is a translation. This is where metaphor comes in. Even if the possession idea is moved to the pronouns as you said it shows that BE constructions can form their own constellations to express the same idea. BTW this is called grammatical metaphor. An idea or concept is expressed in two or more different grammatical ways. The lexical metaphor as you know is the other way round. One lexical entity can have two or more different metaphorical meanings.

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