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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Thank you Casiopea.
    I don't have words to praise you for such a nice explanation.

    Thank you very much.
    Last edited by user_gary; 26-Mar-2007 at 16:11.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    You're most welcome.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    You're most welcome.
    I have now edited. Please review above my post. I had put in one question for you. Please answer for that.

    I am awaiting for your reply.

    I don't know how to say in a polite manner.
    Sorry, If I have hurt you.
    Last edited by user_gary; 26-Mar-2007 at 15:50.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    No harm done. It would be best if you could post your question again on this page. Editing mid-thread isn't a good idea.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    No harm done. It would be best if you could post your question again on this page. Editing mid-thread isn't a good idea.
    I just now I come across one sentence that is :

    I saw a girl carrying a basket of flowers.

    I think here `carrying' is `present participle'. [It is your 2 (a) example]

    Am I right?

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by user_gary View Post
    I just now I came across one sentence that is :

    I saw a girl carrying a basket of flowers.

    I think here `carrying' is `present participle'. [It is your 2 (a) example]

    Am I right?
    Well, let's test it.

    Ex: I saw a girl (who was) carrying a basket of flowers. <participle>

  7. #17
    sariputra is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    So, in other words, you're asking if the nouns families, students, parents and teachers could be possessive adjectives modifying the gerunds spending, showing, and looking, respectively. Right?
    Well, there's a rule for that. It goes like this, the apostrophe that's usually attached to a possessive noun is not required if that noun is plural and it modifies a gerund. Add in the apostrophe, however, and see what happens:
    d
    The festival is a great evening of families' spending time together.
    The festival is a great evening of students' showing off their skills and ideas.
    The festival is a great evening of parentsand teachers' proudly looking on.
    Two thing immediately strike me as odd with those sentences. First, they sound odd, but that in itself is not a strong argument. Second, notice that the adverb proudly pre-modifies looking. We expect that word order with adjectives, but not with nouns. When a gerund is modified by an adverb, which it can be, because it is, after all, a verbal, the adverb post-modifies.
    There's another argument you could consider. Meaning. What do the possessive noun phrases above mean?
    Let me know what you think.
    All the best.
    I sincerely thank you, Casiopea, for your kind replies.

    With reference to the above quoted post, I newly edited my post #8 trying to clarify my question & opinion. I would appreciate it, if you read it again and give me your additional explanation.

    Best regards.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sariputra View Post
    I sincerely thank you, Casiopea, for your kind replies.

    With reference to the above quoted post, I newly edited my post #8 trying to clarify my question & opinion. I would appreciate it, if you read it again and give me your additional explanation.

    Best regards.
    Please don't edit your posts midway through the thread. Please repost your question here on this page, so that it follows the order of the information already posted.

  9. #19
    sariputra is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    When it comes to deteriming whether an -ing word is a gerund (noun) or a participle (adjective), one test never fails for me. I turn the noun + -ing phrase into a relative clause, and if the result is grammatical, I know the -ing word is functioning as part of a verb, as a participle, like here:

    1. families who/that are spending time with one another
    2. students who/that are showing off their skills and ideas,
    3. parents and teachers who/that are proudly looking on.
    Note, the nouns families', students, parents and teachers function as objects of the preposition of:
    of families
    of students
    of parents and teachers

    The -ing words spending, showing, and looking are too far away from the preposition of to be able to function as its objects.
    All the best.
    Thank you, Casiopea for your kind reply. Regarding your explanation, however, I have another question. If you regard the -ing form words as present participles which modifiy the preceding nouns, please note the forms of possessives, which have been underlined below:

    1. a great evening of families who/that are spending time with one another
    2. a great evening of students who/that are showing off their skills and ideas,
    3. a great evening of parents and teachers who/that are proudly looking on.

    English grammar books say like this:

    QUOTE
    We normally use -'s for people or animals (Karen's eyes , the manager's office , the horse's tail, etc.)
    For things, ideas, etc., we normally use of (the name of the book, the owner of the cafe, etc.)
    UNQUOTE

    If it is so, I think it is natural that the underlined parts should be written as follows.

    1. families' great evening
    2. students' great evening
    3. parents' and teachers' great evening

    Such being the case, may the three above mentioned -ing form words well be interpreated as gerunds which have been used as objects of the preposition 'of' instead of present participle? In this case, the preceding nouns (families , students , parents and teachers) can be interpreated as the subjects of the gerunds respectively.

    For your convenience I write the "troblesome" sentence again:
    ********************
    It's a great evening of families spending time with one another, of students showing off their skills and ideas, and of parents and teachers proudly looking on.
    ********************
    I would appreciate it, if you kindly examine my allegation again.
    Best regards,
    Last edited by sariputra; 28-Mar-2007 at 02:25.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Gerund or Present Participle ?

    Quite interesting. Your argument is rather convincing, except for one small problem, which I explain further below, but allow me to give you some background first. (Please note that, when digging into an argument, I always start from the premise that the author is right and that I have to find additional evidence to support that claim. If I can't find additional support, I try to find out where the problem lies, either with my interpretation or with the argument itself, never with the author . So, if my interpretation is incorrect, please let me know ). Here's how I went about analysing your argument:

    Iff 'For things, ideas, etc., we normally use of (the name of the book, the owner of the cafe, etc.), then it follows that A. could be restructed as B., but never C.

    A. It is a photo of Max.
    B. It is Max's photo.
    C. It is a photo of Max's.

    Restructuring has its consequences though, notably a change in meaning. Example A has one meaning, B has a minimum of two meanings, one of which it shares with A and C.

    A. It is a photo of Max.
    Meaning, Max is in the photo

    B. It is Max's photo.
    Meaning1, Max is in the photo, and Max took the photo and/or owns the photo.

    Meaning2, Max is not in the photo, but Max took the photo and/or owns the photo.

    C. It is a photo of Max's.
    Meaning, Max took the photo and/or owns the photo.

    Now, modify the noun Max and the result is semantically awkward B1 and B2:

    A. It is a photo of Max spending time with family and friends.
    B1. It is Max's photo spending time with family and friends.
    B2: It is Max's spending time with family and friends photo.

    Example B1 is awkward because spending modifies the noun photo and, as we know, photos cannot spend time with family and friends. If spending were a gerund, it'd have to sit in a subject or object position, which is doesn't in that example. Example B2 is awkward because the possessive noun phrase Max's appears to have two objects, spending and photo. If, however, we read spending as modifying the noun photo, that is, as an adjective in function, a participle, then the meaning of the sentence is recoverable.

    B2: It is Max's [spending time with family and friends photo].

    Note though, the possessive noun Max's modifies the noun photo and indirectly modifies the participle spending. That's probably where you're reading in gerund, I believe. But it's not a gerund. Spending belongs to the following noun phrase, photo.

    Now, given what we know so far, let's take look at your analysis.

    A. The Festival is a great evening of families spending time with one another
    B1: The Festival is the families' great evening spending time with one another
    B2. The Festival is the families' [spending time with one another great evening]

    Example B1 is awkward, whereas example B2 isn't as awkward if we read spending as modifying great evening. That is, spending belongs to the noun phrase great evening, which is modified, in turn, by the possessive noun families'. So, families' does modify spending, but only indirectly, which makes it a participle, not a gerund.

    Those are my thoughts on the matter. You know, I enjoyed the way you worked your argument, so much so in fact that I was beginning to wonder if your example sentence could be a case where genitive + gerund constructs are moving towards noun + participle constructs (e.g., I hate Max's singing, I hate Max singing), and that I had chosen the modern version, whereas you had chosen the traditional version. However, in the end, which is where we are right now, one thing still nagged at me. The last line of your example sentence, which reads:

    A: great evening of parents and teachers proudly looking on.
    B2: parents and teachers' [proudly looking on] great evening

    It's that line that tells me looking, showing, and spending can't be gerunds.

    Does that help?

    All the best.
    Last edited by Casiopea; 27-Mar-2007 at 16:55.

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