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  1. Anonymous
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    DEAR MIKENEWYORK

    Dear MIKENEWYORK
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikenewyork
    "Michael and David disagree about Michael puttting up his posters"


    Yes, they are participles simply because there is no place for another noun.

    Let's parse the first sentence:

    Michael and David disagree about Michael puttting up his posters.

    Michael -- noun, part of a compound subject
    and -- conjunction linking two parts of a compound subject
    David -- noun, part of a compoubnd subject
    disagree -- verb, plural, because of a compound subject
    about -- preposition introducing a prepositional phrase
    Michael -- noun, object of preposition
    putting up his posters -- participial phrase, acting as an adjective modifying "Michael".

    partcipial phrase:

    putting -- participial adjective, modifying Michael
    up -- adverb modifying the participle "putting"
    the -- definite article modifying "posters"
    posters -- plural noun, direct object of the participle "putting"

    If we called "putting" a noun-gerund here, it wouldn't fit. "About can't have two objects.
    so you mean these three sentences
    Do you mind Mary coming too --->participle phrase
    Do you mind him coming too --->participle phrase
    "Although I did think that him referring to you as Dead Man Walking was kind of amusing." ----->participle phrase


    but
    Quote Originally Posted by Susie Smith
    In formal English, a possessive adjective is used to modify a gerund, as in
    Mr. Jones complained about our coming to class late.

    In informal English, the object form of a pronoun is often used, as in
    Mr. Jones complained about us coming to class late.

    The same is true for nouns used to modify a gerund.

    formal: Mr. Jones complained about Mary'scoming to class late.
    informal: Mr. Jones complained about Mary coming to class late.

    so confused???

  2. MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: DEAR MIKENEWYORK

    Quote Originally Posted by vendy
    so you mean these three sentences
    Do you mind Mary coming too --->participle phrase
    Do you mind him coming too --->participle phrase
    "Although I did think that him referring to you as Dead Man Walking was kind of amusing." ----->participle phrase
    In the first two sentences, "Mary" and "him" are direct objects of the verbs "do mind". The participial phrases are "coming too". As I have written before, if yiou change "Mary" and "him" to "Mary's" and "his", then the participles become gerunds. It is not essential that you know that. It is important that you understand the two different structures and how and when to use them.

    possessive adjective + -ing verbal (gerund)
    name or objective pronoun + -ing verbal (participle)

    The actual grammar names are less important.

    The third sentence is different because of the noun clause "that him referring to you as Dead Man Walking was kind of amusing".

    That clause is the direct object of "think".

    Let's parse the clause. If we use "him" we have:

    1. that -- conjunction used to introduce a noun clause
    2. him -- positioned as the subject of the clause, as "him was kind of amusing". But, an object pronoun can't be the subject of a clause.
    3. referring to you as a Dead man Walking -- participial phrase, modifying "him".
    4. was -- verb of the clause
    5. kind of -- adverb, modifying "amusing"
    6. amusing -- predicate adjective following a linking verb

    That doesn't work. Now, let's try it with "his":

    1. that -- conjunction used to introduce a noun clause
    2. his -- possessive adjective, modifying the gerund "referring".
    3. referring to you as a Dead man Walking -- gerund phrase, acting as the complete subject of the clause
    4. was -- verb of the clause
    5. kind of -- adverb, modifying "amusing"
    6. amusing -- predicate adjective following a linking verb

    That works.

    Therefore, IMO, the objective pronoun "him" is incorrect in this sentence.


    but
    Quote Originally Posted by Susie Smith
    In formal English, a possessive adjective is used to modify a gerund, as in
    Mr. Jones complained about our coming to class late.

    In informal English, the object form of a pronoun is often used, as in
    Mr. Jones complained about us coming to class late.

    The same is true for nouns used to modify a gerund.

    formal: Mr. Jones complained about Mary'scoming to class late.
    informal: Mr. Jones complained about Mary coming to class late.

    so confused???
    That sentence in red is confusing. Nouns, by their nature, do not modify gerunds. Susie was demostrating a difference between possessive adjectives created from a pronoun "our" and a possessive created from a name "Mary's". In both sets of sentences, the [possessive + gerund] is first and the [object + participle] form is second.

    Does that clear up your confusion?

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