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  1. #1
    Englishlanguage is offline Member
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    Default talis pater, talis filius

    Is the Latin expression talis pater, talis filius used in English? Is there a more colloquial correspondent?
    Thank you in advance

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    MrPedantic is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Hello EL,

    "Qualis pater talis filius" can be translated as "like father, like son". You are much more likely to hear the English version; the Latin version is seldom heard.

    MrP

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    Englishlanguage is offline Member
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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPedantic View Post
    Hello EL,

    "Qualis pater talis filius" can be translated as "like father, like son". You are much more likely to hear the English version; the Latin version is seldom heard.

    MrP
    In Latin both my and your versions are correct. On-line dictionaries translate it as "off the old block" but I was looking for a more literal translation.
    Thank you very much for your help

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    MrPedantic is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Hello EL,

    Yes; "a chip off the old block" is sometimes heard.

    All the best,

    MrP

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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    And "The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree."

    I do hear the English version of the Latin phrase as a common expression though, plus "like mother, like daughter."

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    Englishlanguage is offline Member
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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    And "The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree."

    I do hear the English version of the Latin phrase as a common expression though, plus "like mother, like daughter."
    This version is used in Italian too. It's just incredible how languages affect each other! They might have both originated as an adjustment to extend this phrase to women. It would be curious to know whether they have originated independently from each other or they both come from one language which has adjusted the Latin phrase for mothers and daughters.

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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    A note on origin. There's some information here and here, and here.

    There are also these, to follow in someon's footsteps, and the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.

    Hope that helps.

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    Englishlanguage is offline Member
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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    A note on origin. There's some information here and here, and here.

    There are also these, to follow in someon's footsteps, and the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree.

    Hope that helps.
    Thank you. It was really helpful.
    I have a question.
    This is text on Answers.com:

    Like father, like son
    The variant form like father, like daughter also occurs. Like mother, like daughter evolved separately, although both it and this proverb were fixed in this form in the seventeenth century. Cf. L. qualis pater talis filius, as is the father, so is the son.


    When they say that like mother, like daughter evolved separately, does it mean that it originated in English indepentenlty from adjustments of other languages (e.g. Latin or Romance languages)?

    I have found different translations.
    Some people simply say Like father, like son, others say As is the father, so is the son.
    I guess the first one is more common, isn't it? Does the more formal style of the second one sound more ironical?

    P.s: Please correct my mistakes. I'm afraid I've made some in my last post too. Could you check out that as well? Thank you in advance

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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Quote Originally Posted by Englishlanguage View Post
    When they say that like mother, like daughter evolved separately, does it mean that it originated in English indepentenlty from adjustments of other languages (e.g. Latin or Romance languages)?
    What they mean is that Like mother like daughter and Like father, like daughter did not come from the same source. The second one is a version of Like father, like son (Latin, qualis pater talis filius, as is the father, so is the son). The first one, Like mother, like daughter, according to our our source, Answers.com, who borrowed its information from the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, is found in the Cursor Mundi:
    O suilk [such] a moder, wel slik [such] a child.
    [a 1325 Cursor Mundi (EETS) l. 18857]
    The Cursor Mundi (Latin for "Runner of the World") is a Middle-English anonymous religious poem of nearly 30000 lines written around 1300 AD. Read more here.

    Here's the American Standard Version:
    44Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Englishlanguage
    I have found different translations. Some people simply say Like father, like son, others say As is the father, so is the son. I guess the first one is more common, isn't it? Does the more formal style of the second one sound more ironical?
    As is the father, ... is traditional. It's closer to the Latin form than is Like father, ... the version that follows modern English grammar.

    As is the father, ... also holds religious connotations. It's an important creed of Christendom;i.e., As is the Father, such also is the Son, and such the Holy Spirit.


    Does that help?
    _______________________
    Correction
    What do you mean by ironical? Click here, Urban Dictionary: ironical.

  10. #10
    Englishlanguage is offline Member
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    Default Re: talis pater, talis filius

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea View Post
    Correction
    What do you mean by ironical? Click here, Urban Dictionary: ironical.
    I just meant ironic. Thank you for correcting and for your explanations.
    The meaning of ironical is not that clear to me. This opens the problem of the difference(s) between -ic and -ical adjectives but we'd go off topic. I think I'll open a new thread within a few days, when (I hope) I have more spare time.
    Thank you
    Last edited by Englishlanguage; 30-Jun-2007 at 14:15.

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