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  1. #1
    hela is offline Senior Member
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    Default Subjunctive + Prepositions

    Dear teachers,

    A/ SUBJUNCTIVE:

    1) Original stce:

    I did not know the examination was important; I did not study for it.

    Stce transformation: Are the following stces grammatically correct? If yes, what’s the difference btw them?

    a) Had I known the examination WAS important, I would have studied for it.

    b) Had I known the examination HAD BEEN important, I would have studied for it.

    2) Original stce:
    He cannot go skiing with them; he is too busy.

    Stce transformation: Same question as 1)

    a) They wished he would/could go skiing with them but he IS too busy.

    - Why can we have WISH in the past = WISHED combined with the future and present form?

    - Which mood/form do “would / could go” belong to? It is not the past subjunctive, so what is it?

    b) They wished he would/could go skiing with them but he WAS too busy.

    b) They wished (that?) he WENT skiing with them but he WAS too busy.

    c) They wished he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them.

    d) They WISH he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them.

    e) They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he WAS too busy. (This stce does not correspond to the original one, does it?)

    Which stce is closer in form and meaning to the original one?

    B/ Prepositions:

    A Road Accident

    It was raining heavily as I was walking up the hill 1 towards / toward / to (?) the station at 6 o’clock 2 on a Saturday morning. 3 At this early hour there was not much traffic and there weren’t many people in sight. Just as I was crossing the road 4 near / on (?) the top of the hill, a car came round the corner. It was travelling very fast and the driver was obviously having difficulty in controlling it. Suddenly it swerved violently, skidded on the wet road, hit a lamp-post and turned over.
    5 At once I ran 6 to / towards / toward (?) the car to assist the driver, but he was unconscious and there was a lot of blood 7 on his face. A young woman hurried 8 into / to (?) the station and phoned for an ambulance while I took care of the driver.

    Are there other possibilities you can thing of ?

    Thank you very much indeed.
    Hela

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    Default Re: Subjunctive + Prepositions

    Quote Originally Posted by hela
    Dear teachers,

    A/ SUBJUNCTIVE:

    1) Original stce:

    I did not know the examination was important; I did not study for it.

    Stce transformation: Are the following stces grammatically correct? If yes, what’s the difference btw them?

    a) Had I known the examination WAS important, I would have studied for it.

    b) Had I known the examination HAD BEEN important, I would have studied for it.
    Yes, they are both correct, but the second is a bit odd.

    In the first, the speaker is talking about what he should have known at the time (when he took the exam).

    In the second, the speaker is talking about what he should have known before the time. (before he took the exam, but one usually studies before exams)

    2) Original stce:
    He cannot go skiing with them; he is too busy.

    Stce transformation: Same question as 1)

    a) They wished he would/could go skiing with them but he IS too busy.

    - Why can we have WISH in the past = WISHED combined with the future and present form?
    - Which mood/form do “would / could go” belong to? It is not the past subjunctive, so what is it?

    b) They wished he would/could go skiing with them but he WAS too busy.

    b) They wished (that?) he WENT skiing with them but he WAS too busy.

    c) They wished he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them.

    d) They WISH he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them.

    e) They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he WAS too busy. (This stce does not correspond to the original one, does it?)

    Which stce is closer in form and meaning to the original one?
    a) That should be a) They wished he would/could go skiing with them but he WAS too busy. It works better with "could" in my opinion. He was not able to go.

    b) Correct. Again, I prefer "could".

    e) They wished he had gone skiing with them, but he has been too busy.

    c and d don't work for me.

    The first two, a and the first b (as corrected) are the closest.



    B/ Prepositions:

    A Road Accident

    It was raining heavily as I was walking up the hill 1 towards / toward / to (?) the station at 6 o’clock 2 on a Saturday morning. 3 At this early hour there was not much traffic and there weren’t many people in sight. Just as I was crossing the road 4 near / on (?) the top of the hill, a car came round the corner. It was travelling very fast and the driver was obviously having difficulty in controlling it. Suddenly it swerved violently, skidded on the wet road, hit a lamp-post and turned over.
    5 At once I ran 6 to / towards / toward (?) the car to assist the driver, but he was unconscious and there was a lot of blood 7 on his face. A young woman hurried 8 into / to (?) the station and phoned for an ambulance while I took care of the driver.

    Are there other possibilities you can thing of ?
    It was raining heavily as I was walking up the hill 1 towards / toward / to (any) the station at 6 o’clock 2 on a Saturday morning. 3 At this early hour there was not much traffic and there weren’t many people in sight. Just as I was crossing the road 4 near / on (near or at) the top of the hill, a car came round the corner. It was travelling very fast and the driver was obviously having difficulty in controlling it. Suddenly it swerved violently, skidded on the wet road, hit a lamp-post and turned over.
    5 At once I ran 6 to / towards / toward (any) the car to assist the driver, but he was unconscious and there was a lot of blood 7 on his face. A young woman hurried 8 into / to (into) the station and phoned for an ambulance while I took care of the driver.

  3. #3
    hela is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Dear teachers,

    Here are some other questions about the sentences above mentioned . I get so confused sometimes! Correct / Incorrect?

    1) Original stce: He cannot go skiing with them; he is too busy.

    Stce transformation:

    a) They wished he would not be too busy to go skiing with them.
    b) They wished he would not be too busy NOT to go skiing with them (?)

    c) They wished he would not be so busy and could go skiing with them.

    d) They wished he could have gone skiing with them but he was too busy.


    2) a) The police are looking for 2 men, one of whom has a scar on his cheek, in connection with a robbery that took place at a supermarket at 5 pm yesterday.

    b) The police are looking for 2 men in connection with a robbery that took place at a supermarket at 5pm yesterday, one of whom has a scar on his cheek.


    V/ Prepositions: 4) near is OK / at is OK? / on is WRONG?
    7) over is WRONG ? / all over = ?

    Thank you very much indeed!
    Hela

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    hela is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Dear Mike,

    Sorry, I have forgotten the last preposition.

    8) into is OK but to / towards are WRONG ?

    Thank you again.
    Best regards,
    Hela

  5. #5
    hela is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Dear Mike,

    One more question regarding the prepositions. What do you think of

    NEAR for 1 and IN for 8 ?

    Thanks again.
    Hela

  6. #6
    hela is offline Senior Member
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    Dear teachers,

    As far as the use of the subjunctive is concerned I found in some grammar sites that the tense of WISH in a stce does not affect the tense of the verbs of the following clause.


    A/ 1) I wished I knew (not had known) his address.
    (I was sorry I did not know his address)

    2) ‘I wish I lived (not live) nearer my work,’ he said.
    He said he wished he lived (not had lived) nearer his work.

    3) I wish (now) the motorway had been built elsewhere.

    4) I wish they had/would have built the motorway elsewhere.

    5) I wished (then) the motorway were built elsewhere.

    6) I wish/wished I hadn’t spent so much money.
    (I am / was sorry I spent so much money = past action)

    RULE:
    => Wish or wished, only the time of wishing varies; the action denoted in the wish is past in relation to the time of wishing, however, in either case.

    B/ This is why I am so confused about the answer to the question:

    He cannot go skiing with them; he is too busy.
    They wished ...

    a) They wished he could go skiing with them but he IS too busy ?

    b) They wished he could go skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    c) They wished he could have gone with them but he was too busy ?

    d) e) They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    e) They wished he WENT skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    f) They wished he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them ?

    g) They WISH he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them ?

    h) They wished he WOULD NOT BE so busy and COULD GO skiing with them?

    i) They wished he WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN so busy and COULD HAVE GONE skiing with them ?


    I would be so grateful if you could make me understand (at last) how things work with the verb WISH!!

    Best regards,
    Hela

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    Quote Originally Posted by hela
    Dear Mike,

    One more question regarding the prepositions. What do you think of

    NEAR for 1 and IN for 8 ?

    Thanks again.
    Hela
    "Near" would work in number 1, but it would change the meaning. The woman would no longer be going to the station.

    It does not work in 8. She had to go somewhere to get help. :wink:

  8. #8
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    [quote="hela"]Dear teachers,

    As far as the use of the subjunctive is concerned I found in some grammar sites that the tense of WISH in a stce does not affect the tense of the verbs of the following clause.


    A/ 1) I wished I knew (not had known) his address.
    (I was sorry I did not know his address)
    The tense of "wish" is somewhat independent of the following clause. However, the meaning can change as the tenses change.

    I wish I knew his address. That usually means that the person wishes the address information to be available in the present. The past tense of "knew" is the subjunctive used for something contrary to fact. In fact, she doesn't know his address.

    If the person intends to say that she wishes she had that information in the past, she would say "I wish I had known his address."

    When we put "wish" in the past tense, it becomes more difficult. Technically, "I wished I knew his address" means "knew at that time in the past" and "I wished I had known his address" means "knew" before the time in the past. Logically, however, if someone knows something at the time, they also knew it just before that time. There is little difference. I prefer "had known" in those cases, however.


    2) ‘I wish I lived (not live) nearer my work,’ he said.
    He said he wished he lived (not had lived) nearer his work.
    The present tense "know" doesn't work because it is contrary to fact. In this case only "knew" or "had known" would work, as above.

    3) I wish (now) the motorway had been built elsewhere.
    In this case, one could use either "were built" or "had been built". They are slighty different. The "were" form focuses on the location of the motorway now. The "had been" form focuses on the actual time of the building.

    4) I wish they had/would have built the motorway elsewhere.
    These are equivalent in meaning. I prefer "had built".

    5) I wished (then) the motorway were built elsewhere.
    See #3.

    6) I wish/wished I hadn’t spent so much money.
    (I am / was sorry I spent so much money = past action)
    Both are correct. With "wish" the regret is in the present; with "wished" the regret is in the past.

    RULE:
    => Wish or wished, only the time of wishing varies; the action denoted in the wish is past in relation to the time of wishing, however, in either case.

    B/ This is why I am so confused about the answer to the question:

    He cannot go skiing with them; he is too busy.
    They wished ...

    a) They wished he could go skiing with them but he IS too busy ?

    b) They wished he could go skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    c) They wished he could have gone with them but he was too busy ?

    d) e) They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    e) They wished he WENT skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    f) They wished he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them ?

    g) They WISH he WERE not too busy so that he could go skiing with them ?

    h) They wished he WOULD NOT BE so busy and COULD GO skiing with them?

    i) They wished he WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN so busy and COULD HAVE GONE skiing with them ?
    a No. The wishing is in the past. His current state of busyness is not relevant.

    b Yes. Even though the wishing is in the past, their wish at the time was present. His busyness is not part of the wish. That must be past tense.

    c Yes. The wish is a conditional. The could have gone indicates that they had already found out that he couldn't go. This is a bit different from "they wished he could go" in that it is an unreal situation with the "could have gone" form.

    d. No. Now the wish, still in the past is about something that already passed. He did not go skiing. After the trip, they still wished that he had gone. His state of busyness is now also in the past with respect to the wish. That should be "had been too busy".

    e. +/- I would accept that with "went", but I would prefer "had gone". Again the end should be "had been".

    f. No. Now the busy part is part of the wish. I would use the infinitive "to go skiing" instead of the "so that..." clause. I would also use "had been" instead of "were".

    g OK, but use the infinitive.

    h No. This has a future sense to it. We would use "hoped" here.

    i Ok, but a bit clumsy.

    :wink:

  9. #9
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    Dear Mike,

    Thank you very very much for your explanations on the subjunctive! That helped me a lot.

    A/ One more question though, if we need the past perfect in the 2nd clause of one of the following sentences why don't we need the past perfect in the other, too?

    1) They wished he COULD HAVE GONE with them but he WAS too busy ?

    [Yes. The wish is a conditional. The could have gone indicates that they had already found out that he couldn't go. This is a bit different from "they wished he could go" in that it is an unreal situation with the "could have gone" form. ]


    2) They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    [No. Now the wish, still in the past is about something that already passed. He did not go skiing. After the trip, they still wished that he had gone. His state of busyness is now also in the past with respect to the wish. That should be "HAD BEEN too busy". ]

    If we need to write :

    "They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he HAD BEEN too busy";

    Why don't we write :

    "They wished he COULD HAVE GONE skiing with them but he HAD BEEN too busy. "
    For this stce should the 2nd clause be "WAS too busy", "HAD BEEN too busy", or both?

    B/ By the way, are we not obliged to use the modal in the first clause in this stce transformation? Is it possible to answer with both verb forms?

    Thanks a million.
    Best regards,
    Hela

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    Quote Originally Posted by hela
    Dear Mike,

    Thank you very very much for your explanations on the subjunctive! That helped me a lot.

    A/ One more question though, if we need the past perfect in the 2nd clause of one of the following sentences why don't we need the past perfect in the other, too?

    1) They wished he COULD HAVE GONE with them but he WAS too busy ?

    [Yes. The wish is a conditional. The could have gone indicates that they had already found out that he couldn't go. This is a bit different from "they wished he could go" in that it is an unreal situation with the "could have gone" form. ]


    2) They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he WAS too busy ?

    [No. Now the wish, still in the past is about something that already passed. He did not go skiing. After the trip, they still wished that he had gone. His state of busyness is now also in the past with respect to the wish. That should be "HAD BEEN too busy". ]

    If we need to write :

    "They wished he HAD GONE skiing with them but he HAD BEEN too busy";

    Why don't we write :

    "They wished he COULD HAVE GONE skiing with them but he HAD BEEN too busy. "
    For this stce should the 2nd clause be "WAS too busy", "HAD BEEN too busy", or both?

    B/ By the way, are we not obliged to use the modal in the first clause in this stce transformation? Is it possible to answer with both verb forms?

    Thanks a million.
    Best regards,
    Hela
    In my view, the time of the wishing and the time of the business in the first one was the same time. They were standing with him, wishing that he could have gone, but he was too busy at that time. Because the time frames are the same, the tenses are the same.

    In the second, the wishing is later than the "had gone" and the "had been busy. That is why the the past perfect is used for the two actions at an earlier time.

    Why don't we write :

    "They wished he COULD HAVE GONE skiing with them but he HAD BEEN too busy. "
    For this stce should the 2nd clause be "WAS too busy", "HAD BEEN too busy", or both?
    In my opinion, that would make it sound as if he was busy before they did the wishing. This is not impossible, but I don't think that is what was being communicated. I prefer "was too busy".

    B/ By the way, are we not obliged to use the modal in the first clause in this stce transformation? Is it possible to answer with both verb forms?
    I'm not sure I understand, but the modal is not the only way to go.

    They wished he were going skiing with them, but he was too busy.
    They wished he were able to go skiing, but he was too busy.

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