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  1. #11
    MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    He is her brother who left the country. Ungrammatical (Semantics)

    I was looking at the referencing between the Subject pronoun, the PossP, and the relative.

    All the best,
    I understand, but the relative clause obeys the rules.

    He = her brother
    her brother = the one who left the country

    thus:

    He = the one who left the country.

    A: Who is that?
    B: That's her brother.
    A: But I thought her brother left the country.
    B: He is her brother who left the country. He is back for a visit.

  2. #12
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    Hi Casiopea,
    Thanks for your replies.

    I think I have managed once more to create confusion. If only I could get paid for producing confusion!

    This is the way I see things:

    1-John is her brother. He graduated from Harvard.=John is her brother, who graduated from Harvard. (who clause, non-restrictive)

    2-John is that brother of hers who graduated from Harvard, not the one who graduated from Yale.=John is her brother who graduated from Harvard not ... (who clause, restrictive)

    3-Her brother graduated from Harvard, not her cousin.=It was her brother who (that) graduated from Harvard, not her cousin. (I think they call these cleft sentences)

    4-Who was that on the phone?
    It was her brother, the one that graduated from Harvard.=It was her brother who ("that" would not be wrong but would be bad) graduated from Harvard.

    5-Who was that on the phone?
    It was her brother. You know, he graduated from Harvard.=It was her brother, who ("that" would not be wrong but would be bad) graduated from Harvard.

    Now I think these days native speakers sometimes use the restrictive clause instead of the non-restrictive clause:
    A-His brother who is a doctor called us last night.
    instead of:
    B-His brother, who is a doctor, called us last night.

    As far as I have understood, strictly speaking, A implies that she has more than one brother.

    I think it is even more widespread with the "'s" possessive:
    C-"Jane's brother who was there told us the story."

    Can one really conclude from that sentence that she has more than one brother?
    I am not sure.

    In any case, these are just my opinions, and I am not a native speaker, so don't hesitate to correct me. I think I have created some confusion and I thought I might try to clear things up.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork
    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    He is her brother who left the country. Ungrammatical (Semantics)

    I was looking at the referencing between the Subject pronoun, the PossP, and the relative.

    All the best,
    I understand, but the relative clause obeys the rules.

    He = her brother
    her brother = the one who left the country

    thus:

    He = the one who left the country.

    A: Who is that?
    B: That's her brother.
    A: But I thought her brother left the country.
    B: He is her brother who left the country. He is back for a visit.
    I don't disagree. Actually, I'm trying very hard to grasp it. I really want to see it but I can't seem to make it out. It's tickling my cognitive bone something awful. Hep-me.

    He is her brother who left the country. :( Possp
    He, her brother, left the country. :D Pronoun
    He is the guy who left the country. :D Noun
    Her brother who left the country last year.... :( Possp
    Her brother, who by the way left the country last year.... :D Possp
    He is the brother that/who left the country.... :D Specific
    He is the brother of hers that/who left the country.... :) Specific

  4. #14
    MikeNewYork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    I don't disagree. Actually, I'm trying very hard to grasp it. I really want to see it but I can't seem to make it out. It's tickling my cognitive bone something awful. Hep-me.

    He is her brother who left the country. :( Possp
    He, her brother, left the country. :D Pronoun
    He is the guy who left the country. :D Noun
    Her brother who left the country last year.... :( Possp
    Her brother, who by the way left the country last year.... :D Possp
    He is the brother that/who left the country.... :D Specific
    He is the brother of hers that/who left the country.... :) Specific
    And I don't disagree that the construction is a bit clumsy. I just can't get it to be ungrammatical. The presence of a possessive adjective should not preclude the presence of a defining relative clause; at least I know of no such rule.

    Perhaps the bothersome part is that the possessive pronoun seems to identify the noun and the defining clause seems to define it again.

    For example:

    It is her brother who left the country.

    With emphasis on "her", it sounds very natural.

    This is her brother who left the country.

    <separates this one of her brothers from another of her brothers>

    This is her brother, who left the country.

    <now there may be only one brother>

    He is her brother who left the country.

    <this does not seem as natural, but I can't really dispute the grammar>

    I am as stuck on this one as you are.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork
    The presence of a possessive adjective should not preclude the presence of a defining relative clause; at least I know of no such rule.

    Perhaps the bothersome part is that the possessive pronoun seems to identify the noun and the defining clause seems to define it again.

    For example:

    1. It is her brother who left the country.
    2. This is her brother who left the country.
    3. He is her brother who left the country.
    Thanx. :) I think I see it now. :D

    'He' equates to the entire [closed] phrase 'her brother who left',

    He is her brother who left.

    That is, He = her brother who left,

    Her brother who left is he. (That guy over there).

    I was looking at something different: "He, her brother, is the one who left", wherein 'who' refers to 'the one', which refers to 'He'; 'her brother' modifies 'He'.

    Thanx. 8)

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