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  1. #11
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    Default Re: related/relevant V.S. relation/relationship

    Quote Originally Posted by blacknomi
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork
    Quote Originally Posted by blacknomi
    Here you are,
    (a)
    The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
    The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
    The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
    There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.
    The third one is clearly wrong. A cost cannot be relevant to the expected cost. And "bears is closely relevant" has no meaning.
    The other three are grammatical, but none of them are very good. The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost. This is actually what the person is trying to say.
    The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
    --The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
    --The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
    --There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

    Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."

    That's all by now. My class starts within 1 minute. Have to split now. More later.
    Dear Mike,
    If you get some time, don't forget this one, and my following reply.
    8)

  2. #12
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    I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
    How about in this case?
    The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
    The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight.
    The 2nd sentence is correct.

    And this?
    The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
    The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
    As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.
    Correct. The first sentence is fine by me.

    FRC

  3. #13
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    The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
    Hmmm. I don't think you can use 'relation' in that case. Mike's "The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost" is clearly better.

    --The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
    OK
    --The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
    Wrong. Somthing cannot be relevant to someone's attitude.
    --There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)
    'relation' is uncountable if I'm correct. So I would use 'relationship' here.

    Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."
    I agree.

    FRC

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
    How about in this case?
    The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
    The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight.
    The 2nd sentence is correct.

    And this?
    The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
    The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
    As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.
    Correct. The first sentence is fine by me.

    FRC

    Your first answer has contradicted the latter one. I am even more confused.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francois

    --The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.

    OK

    --The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.

    Wrong. Somthing cannot be relevant to someone's attitude.
    I don't get this one. Could you provide me with more examples with 'be related to' and 'be relevant to'? I want to figure it out by myself. ( hope it's not a wishful thinking.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    --There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

    'relation' is uncountable if I'm correct. So I would use 'relationship' here.
    Hm...not my native language. No idea either. I do see "relations" in some my books. And if your memory is right, I'm afraid it doesn't seem logical to me that if "relations" is wrong, than use "relationship". :wink:

  6. #16
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    Your first answer has contradicted the latter one. I am even more confused
    I don't see why they contradict themselves. Could a teacher sort that out?

    I don't get this one. Could you provide me with more examples with 'be related to' and 'be relevant to'? I want to figure it out by myself. ( hope it's not a wishful thinking.)
    "His results are related to his unflagging motivation"
    "Those figures are not relevant to our discussion"
    "Whether you had an unhappy childhood or not is not is not relevant to our verdict"

    I do see "relations" in some my books
    Yes, when it refers to persons ("friends and relations").

    And if your memory is right, I'm afraid it doesn't seem logical to me that if "relations" is wrong, than use "relationship".
    Well, in this case it's clearly one or the other, right?

    FRC

  7. #17
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    Default Re: related/relevant V.S. relation/relationship

    [quote="blacknomi"][quote="blacknomi"]
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork
    Quote Originally Posted by blacknomi
    Here you are,
    (a)
    The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected.
    The actual cost is closely related to what we expected.
    The actual cost bears is closely relevant to what we expected.
    There is a close relationship between the actual cost and what we expected.
    The third one is clearly wrong. A cost cannot be relevant to the expected cost. And "bears is closely relevant" has no meaning.
    The other three are grammatical, but none of them are very good. The actual cost was close to the expected/estimated cost. This is actually what the person is trying to say.
    The actual cost bears close relation to what we expected to be. (Is it better?)
    --The sales performance is related to employee's working attitude.
    --The sales performance is relevant to employee's working attitude.
    -

    Not a whole lot better. It is simpler and more accurate to say that the actual cost is close to what we expected it to be or estimated. I don't see a need for "bears close relation" there.

    Of the next two, I would choose the first. The performance is affectd by and related to the attitude. Relevant would mean that it had meaning for the attitude.

    -There's a close relation between sales performance and employee's working attitude. ( I used 'relation' instead of 'relationship' in this case because I think the former is dealt with more abstract idea such as performance and attitude, whereas relationship is used in a more human relation way, is that right?)

    Besides, I think it's not proper to say "The sales performance is close to employee's working attitude."
    One could use either one in the sales sentence.

    It would not be correct to use "close to" in that context.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacknomi
    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    I don't quite get it by your meaning 'in this case.'
    How about in this case?
    The relation between Iraq and USA is tight.
    The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight.
    The 2nd sentence is correct.

    And this?
    The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
    The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close.
    As I analysed before, I'd use 'relation' in this case because 'war' and 'price' are not concrete idea for me.
    Correct. The first sentence is fine by me.

    FRC

    Your first answer has contradicted the latter one. I am even more confused.
    Question 1
    I assume the following examples are correct.
    The relation between Iraq and USA is tight. (incorrect, why? I heard BBC news today, one of the journalist said so.)
    The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight. (correct)

    How about this one?
    ==>The relation between two countries is tight.
    ==>The relationship between two countries is tight.



    Question 2
    The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (correct)
    The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (incorrect, why?)



    These examples above, can I swap either one of them?

  9. #19
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    My understanding is that 'relation' is more of a concept, while '"relationship' is an instance of that concept. Eg. a relationship can be ended. That's what I meant with the 'uncountable' point.
    Am I wide of the mark?

    The relation between Iraq and USA is tight. (incorrect, why? I heard BBC news today, one of the journalist said so.)
    The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight. (correct)
    I would use 'relationship' b/c the 'link' is pretty concrete here. Again, the 'relationship' between Iraq and the USA can be ended.

    How about this one?
    ==>The relation between two countries is tight.
    ==>The relationship between two countries is tight.
    Again, I would use 'relationship'.

    The relation between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (correct)
    The relationship between the war at Iraq and the price of pretrolium is obviously close. (incorrect, why?)
    Here, what is really of interest to us is the fact that there's a relation between the war and the price of petroleum. I wouldn't say that it can be ended, threatened or whatever (whereas we could say that about a 'relationship').

    FRC

  10. #20
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    Let me try now!

    <1>"The relation between two countries is tight" should here mean that the connection ( business connections etc.,) Iraq and USA is tight.

    <2>"The relationship between Iraq and USA is tight" would mean that the the way in which they feel and behave towards each other is
    'tight.'

    relation (from Cambr.):
    (1) the connection or similarity between two things
    (2) a member of your family

    relationship( from Cambr.):
    (1) the way in which two things are connected
    (2)the way in which two or more people feel and behave towards each other
    (3)a close romantic friendship between two people, which is often sexual
    (4)the family connection between people

    There is also relations (plural) which means the way in which two or more people feel and behave towards each other

    :wink:

    P.S Hope others'll have their comments, too.

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