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Thread: such as

  1. #1
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    such as

    Is there any difference between:

    1-Great men, such as A, B and C, always woke up late.
    2-Great men such as A, B and C, always woke up late.
    3-Such great men as A, B and C always woke up late.

    It seems to me that in the first sentence, A, B and C are merely examples of great men, while in 2 and 3, they define a type of great man (not all great men, but the ones who were like A, B and C).

  2. #2
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    I don't like the comma in 2. I agree with your distinction for 1&3, though.

  3. #3
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    Thanks again,
    Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
    How about:
    2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
    Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by navi tasan
    Thanks again,
    Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
    How about:
    2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
    Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)
    I don't like #2 with out the offsetting commas. I don't see any way to avoid the parenthetical nature of the "such as" phrase.

  5. #5
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    Thanks, but I am back where I started!

    I thought "such as" could be used in two ways:
    a-meaning "like"
    b-meaning "for example"

    A-Great men such as you and I wake up late.= That type of great man, the type to which we belong, a sub-category of the category "great men"

    B-Great man, such as you and I, wake up late.=All great mean (you and I being examples of great men)

    In other words, the way I see it, the equivalent of "Such great men as you and I wake up late." can't have offsetting commas and should be:
    A.

    Consider:
    C-"Not all great men, but such great men as you and I, wake up late."

    Have I got it, or ....

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    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork
    Quote Originally Posted by navi tasan
    Thanks again,
    Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
    How about:
    2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
    Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)
    I don't like #2 with out the offsetting commas. I don't see any way to avoid the parenthetical nature of the "such as" phrase.
    In that case, shouldn'tthere be two commas. I'd avoid #2.

  7. #7
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    What if I use "men" instead of "great men"? Would you use commas in that case?
    1-Men such as you and I wake up late.
    2-Men, such as you and I, wake up late.
    To me it seems that in 1, we are talking about a special category of man, which includes us. In this context, 2 doesn't make much sense to me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by navi tasan
    Thanks, but I am back where I started!

    I thought "such as" could be used in two ways:
    a-meaning "like"
    b-meaning "for example"

    A-Great men such as you and I wake up late.= That type of great man, the type to which we belong, a sub-category of the category "great men"

    B-Great man, such as you and I, wake up late.=All great mean (you and I being examples of great men)

    In other words, the way I see it, the equivalent of "Such great men as you and I wake up late." can't have offsetting commas and should be:
    A.

    Consider:
    C-"Not all great men, but such great men as you and I, wake up late."

    Have I got it, or ....
    I don't agree exactly. "Such" can be used as "like" without commas, but I don't like it when you start with "great men". The two people don't define "great men"; they can only be examples.

    Try this:

    A boy such as yourself....
    ...would happen to two men such as us.
    A great man such as John....

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdol
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNewYork
    Quote Originally Posted by navi tasan
    Thanks again,
    Which comma in 2 don't you like? I suppose it's the comma after C.
    How about:
    2a-"Great men such as A, B and C always woke up late."
    Would you class it with 1 or 3? (example or definig a type?)
    I don't like #2 with out the offsetting commas. I don't see any way to avoid the parenthetical nature of the "such as" phrase.
    In that case, shouldn'tthere be two commas. I'd avoid #2.
    Yes. You're correct. :wink:

  10. #10
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    Thanks Mike.

    This is becoming interesting, and confusing for me.

    So, if I have understood correctly:
    "A boy such as yourself.... "
    "...would happen to two men such as us."
    "A great man such as John...."
    are OK, and in each case we have a type defined by the phrase which postmodifies the noun.

    "A great man such as John..." is not citing John just as a great man, it is defining a sub-type of great man. Not all great men, but a great man who is like John...

    Great men, such as you and I, ...
    is OK too, you and I being examples of great men.

    Now, how about:

    Such great men as you and I...

    is this equivalent to:
    "Great men, such as you and I...
    or is it defining a sub-type?

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