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  1. #1
    soleiljy is offline Junior Member
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    Default simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    ....
    An autopsy has been performed on West, but the cause of death has been "deferred" pending the results of additional toxicology tests, which won't be available for five or six weeks, Fred Corral, a spokesman for the Los Angeles coroner's investigation division, said Monday.
    A spokesman for plastic surgeon Jan Adams told the Associated Press that Adams, who has appeared on Oprah and had his own series on Discovery Health, operated on West.
    ----------------------------------------------
    I'm always confused whenever considering between simple past and past perfect because sometimes, both can be used, but not in some cases.

    1) has appeared:
    Q1) Does the meaning of this one contain Jan Adams appeared on the Oprah show more than one time until lately or just one time in the past?
    Q 2) I think 'appeared' can't be used instead of 'has appeared' because there's no mention about specific time when he appeared on the show. correct?

    2) operated
    It's really tricky to me. IMHO, "has operated" should have been used 'cause there's no mention about exactly when Jan Adams operated on West. Is there anything I'm missing?

    Thanks!
    Have a nice Thanksgiving day!

  2. #2
    Anglika is offline No Longer With Us
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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    #1 He has at some time been on Oprah Winfrey's show. It is not specified whether this is once or more than once, just that he has been on it. You cannot replace "has appeared" with "appeared".

    #2 No, you are not missing anything. It is a statement that Adams carried out an operation on West.

  3. #3
    soleiljy is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    #1 If 'appeared' is used, what would it mean?

    #2 If i am not missing anything, could you explain why 'operated' is used instead of 'has operated'? Both can be used in this case?

  4. #4
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    Quote Originally Posted by soleiljy View Post
    #1 If 'appeared' is used, what would it mean?

    It would simply say that he was on Oprah before, but by using the PP, the writer can simply relate that that experience has occurred without being specific.


    #2 If i am not missing anything, could you explain why 'operated' is used instead of 'has operated'? Both can be used in this case?
    One of the uses of the PP is to make a past action important to now, to emphasize a past action's current relevance.

    An autopsy has been performed on West, but the cause of death has been "deferred" pending the results of additional toxicology tests,

    ++++++++
    A spokesman for plastic surgeon Jan Adams told the Associated Press that Adams, who has appeared on Oprah and had his own series on Discovery Health, operated on West.
    ++++++++++++

    Here, above, there is no need to highlight the past action by using the PP. It is a fact that is known and it's over and done with.

    If the spokesman used the Present Perfect, it would leave us with the feeling that Adams had operated more than once on Ms West, over a period of time.

    The PP of current relevance/importance is often used as a lead in to a story but after the lead in we don't continue to use it. It's served its purpose by drawing greater attention to some past fact. The fact is then discussed with the past simple.

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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    Quote Originally Posted by soleiljy View Post
    ....
    An autopsy has been performed on West, but the cause of death has been "deferred" pending the results of additional toxicology tests, which won't be available for five or six weeks, Fred Corral, a spokesman for the Los Angeles coroner's investigation division, said Monday.
    A spokesman for plastic surgeon Jan Adams told the Associated Press that Adams, who has appeared on Oprah and had his own series on Discovery Health, operated on West.
    ----------------------------------------------
    I'm always confused whenever considering between simple past and past perfect because sometimes, both can be used, but not in some cases.

    1) has appeared:
    Q1) Does the meaning of this one contain Jan Adams appeared on the Oprah show more than one time until lately or just one time in the past?
    Q 2) I think 'appeared' can't be used instead of 'has appeared' because there's no mention about specific time when he appeared on the show. correct?

    2) operated
    It's really tricky to me. IMHO, "has operated" should have been used 'cause there's no mention about exactly when Jan Adams operated on West. Is there anything I'm missing?

    Thanks!
    Have a nice Thanksgiving day!

    Sorry to butt in, but I just wanted to point out that we are talking about the present perfect, not the past perfect...
    In reference to: (just to add my two bits)
    1. "has appeared" 1&2) Anglika is completely right...and you can't use the simple past "appeared" without a specific time reference (as you mentioned). "Appeared" would never be used here by a native speaker.

    2. "operated" : I sense there was some previous text that might give context to "operated" but if not (but I'd be very surprised!) the ambiguity of "has operated" (as in "has appeared"...how many times and when) might have been the reason for the simple past choice because it indicates a single action. My bet is that there is a previous reference to this in the text somewhere though

    Fiona

  6. #6
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    Quote Originally Posted by fiona bramble View Post
    Sorry to butt in, but I just wanted to point out that we are talking about the present perfect, not the past perfect...
    In reference to: (just to add my two bits)
    1. "has appeared" 1&2) Anglika is completely right...and you can't use the simple past "appeared" without a specific time reference (as you mentioned). "Appeared" would never be used here by a native speaker.

    2. "operated" : I sense there was some previous text that might give context to "operated" but if not (but I'd be very surprised!) the ambiguity of "has operated" (as in "has appeared"...how many times and when) might have been the reason for the simple past choice because it indicates a single action. My bet is that there is a previous reference to this in the text somewhere though

    Fiona
    Butt in away, Fiona. Nice catch, again, on the PastP vs the PresentP

    Do you mean that in this case, "you can't use the simple past "appeared" without a specific time reference"?

    WRT "operated", I don't think that there has to be any immediate previous text. It could simply be that it's a known fact and the reported just sought to confirm it.

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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid View Post
    Butt in away, Fiona. Nice catch, again, on the PastP vs the PresentP

    Do you mean that in this case, "you can't use the simple past "appeared" without a specific time reference"?

    WRT "operated", I don't think that there has to be any immediate previous text. It could simply be that it's a known fact and the reported just sought to confirm it.
    OK, I just sprayed my oven with oven cleaner, so nothing I say here can be used against me.
    First, my pleasure, in catching the errors of my esteemed "colleagues". I'm usually just adding irrelevant comments your wonderful and accurate replies, so it makes me feel useful
    Second, you either text alot or are a good deal younger than I, but I just figured out (I think!) what WRT means...with reference to???
    So...WRT "operated", no, I didn't mean immediate previous text necessarily, but at least, stated or understood general context. As you well know, it is ALL context!! That said, if this is an article, I suspect there is an established context somewhere in the text.
    I take it you agree that there has to be a reference somewhere to "the operation" for the simple past to be possible here...?

    Fiona

  8. #8
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: simple past VS. past perfect coming from an article of death of Donda West

    Quote Originally Posted by fiona bramble View Post
    OK, I just sprayed my oven with oven cleaner, so nothing I say here can be used against me.
    First, my pleasure, in catching the errors of my esteemed "colleagues". I'm usually just adding irrelevant comments your wonderful and accurate replies, so it makes me feel useful
    Second, you either text alot or are a good deal younger than I, but I just figured out (I think!) what WRT means...with reference to???


    I wish that I could state it was the latter but I doubt that it's possible. 'with respect to' but yours works fine too.



    So...WRT "operated", no, I didn't mean immediate previous text necessarily, but at least, stated or understood general context. As you well know, it is ALL context!!

    Absolutely, Fiona! Language doesn't exist in a vacuum.

    That said, if this is an article, I suspect there is an established context somewhere in the text.
    I take it you agree that there has to be a reference somewhere to "the operation" for the simple past to be possible here...?


    I'm not sure that I do or don't, Fiona. But wouldn't past references, in other articles, TV spots, radio, etc. be enough. This thing has been in the news for a while.


    Fiona
    Just a small aside, and this isn't directed to anyone in particular, but doesn't it seem that the whole idea of cosmetic surgery goes against what doctors stand for; First, do no harm. In other words, don't do unnecessary, ie. unneeded cutting. Operations are, by their very nature, dangerous.

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