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  1. #21
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    Do your different points of view lead to practical differences? I'm a bit lost in the grammatical debate, and I'm not sure whether you're arguing about terminology or it's more than that.
    Just asking,

    FRC

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    Do your different points of view lead to practical differences? I'm a bit lost in the grammatical debate, and I'm not sure whether you're arguing about terminology or it's more than that.
    Just asking,

    FRC
    No, there are no practical differences. It's good that you asked that. :D 8) At this point the discussion is more about terminology. I'm not really arguing, but just stating it as I understand it. :wink:

    The idea I had in mind at first was to talk about which form would be more likely to appear in certain types of discourse, both spoken and written.

    Maybe the discussion will take a turn in that direction.

    :D :) 8)

  3. #23
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    It's still helpful, as a refresher on grammatical terms. Your explanations are quite clear.

    FRC

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    It's still helpful, as a refresher on grammatical terms. Your explanations are quite clear.

    FRC

    Thank you. We do try.


    8) :) :D


  5. #25
    wunaide Guest

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    I'm not sure I understand. Action is shown, but I don't see how it can be called a clause. A clause has a verb. The phrase "after eating dinner" has a "verbal", which is not exactly the same as an "action verb".
    In the example, after eating dinner, eating is most definitely a verb. Moreover it is not part of a postmodifying structure (see below).

    Every VG that is not part of a postmodifying struture is known as a Process. Every clause has one and only one Process, and every Process is part of one and ony one clause. Postmodifying structures (see below) are referred to as embedded clauses, but they are not "true" clauses, because they are only part of a nominal group (eg see below - beer that's cold etc ) and the VGs they contain do not refer to the actions or relationships that the text is immediately concerned with.


    Verb Groups (eg: go, went, had gone, was to have been going, eating, had eaten, ate, will be eating, would have been going to be eating, say, would say, had thought, is, was, would be, has, had been, had had, had been having, there is, there will be...etc etc etc etc etc etc) are used in English in one of two ways.

    1. As Processes

    2. As part of modifying structures (embedded clauses)


    Examples of clauses containing VGs as Processes:
    (the following examples include Dependent, Independent and Nonfinite Clauses)

    after eating dinner/when i go to town/ I am here/ we would have to go there/sit down here/ because there are two of them/there is never enough time/ having realised the implications of this/
    these are the chairs/ i don't drink beer

    Processes are VGs that are of immediate relevance to the action, the events, the relationships or the situation the text is concerned with.

    Examples of VGs as part of modifying structures

    the chairs that they sat on/the one you like most/beer that's not cold


    Examples of Clauses with VG in the post modifier

    These are the chairs that they sat on.

    Choose the one you like most.

    I don't drink beer that's not cold.


    It is of great help to students to be shown how to distinguish between VGs that act as Processes and those that act merely as part of a postmodifying structures. This can be acheived by firstly asking them to identify all VGs in text, then to identify which are Process and which are not (ie which are merely part of Nominal Groups. They can then proceed by identifying clause boundaries, and then further to discriminate between Independent and Dependent Clauses, and to recognise and understand how they are connected.

    A typical analysis would go like this:

    Example:This is the table that we had been going to buy on that trip to China when John was writing that new book of his that sold so well.


    1. Identify Verb Groups:

    This is the table we had been going to buy on that trip to China when John was writing that new book of his that sold so well.


    2. Identify which are Processes and which (merely) modify.

    .........Proc..............................Modifyi ng
    This is the table we had been going to buy on that trip

    ..................................Process......... .......................................Mod.
    to China when John was writing that new book of his that sold so well.

    3. Identify Clause Boundaries and clause types.

    INDEPENDENT CLAUSE ( includes <<Postmodification>> of table)
    |||This is the table <<we had been going to buy on that trip
    to China>> ||

    DEPENDENT CLAUSE (includes postmod of "book of his")
    || when John was writing <<that new book of his that sold so well>>.|||


    Systematic analysis of text in this way (these are just the first few steps) gives students of all levels the tools to analyse and come to understand the fundamental structure of English. I know because this is what I do.

    There is nothing fundamentally "wrong" with traditional grammatical approaches. It's just that they are really quite meaningless where English teaching is concerned. English , indeed any language is not the sum total of millions of individual fragments as traditional grammatical approaches so wrongly imply. Rather languages are comprised of discrete functional units of meaning, and it is these for which students are searching in their endeavours.

  6. #26
    wunaide Guest

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    sorry, a slip:

    3. Identify Clause Boundaries and clause types.
    SHOULD READ

    INDEPENDENT CLAUSE ( includes <<Postmodification>> of table)
    |||This is the table <<we had been going to buy on that trip
    to China>> ||

    DEPENDENT CLAUSE (includes postmod of "that new book of his")
    || when John was writing that new book of his <<that sold so well>>.|||

  7. #27
    wunaide Guest

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    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by X Mode
    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    Do your different points of view lead to practical differences? I'm a bit lost in the grammatical debate, and I'm not sure whether you're arguing about terminology or it's more than that.
    Just asking,

    FRC
    No, there are no practical differences. It's good that you asked that. :D 8) At this point the discussion is more about terminology. I'm not really arguing, but just stating it as I understand it. :wink:
    If you are referring to my contributions, this is in no way concerned with mere terminological differences, and there are enormous practical implications.

    Anybody who claims that this is a mere disagreement over terminology, and I've heard this specious claim before, has either not taken the time or has no inclination to consider a functional (as opposed to a traditional) approach. I feel I am at an advantage where any comparisons between the two are concerned, having been well schooled in the fragmentary, unsystematic and pedagogically ineffective traditional grammatical description of English.

    Good health.

  8. #28
    Steven D's Avatar
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    [quote="wunaide"]
    Quote Originally Posted by X Mode
    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    Do your different points of view lead to practical differences? I'm a bit lost in the grammatical debate, and I'm not sure whether you're arguing about terminology or it's more than that.
    Just asking,

    FRC
    No, there are no practical differences. It's good that you asked that. :D 8) At this point the discussion is more about terminology. I'm not really arguing, but just stating it as I understand it. :wink:
    If you are referring to my contributions, this is in no way concerned with mere terminological differences, and there are enormous practical implications.

    Anybody who claims that this is a mere disagreement over terminology, and I've heard this specious claim before, has either not taken the time or has no inclination to consider a functional (as opposed to a traditional) approach. I feel I am at an advantage where any comparisons between the two are concerned, having been well schooled in the fragmentary, unsystematic and pedagogically ineffective traditional grammatical description of English.

    Good health.

    I'm not sure I understand what exactly it is you are getting at.

    mm...... To continue:

    It seems to me that your comments have been aimed at using different terminology to refer to the grammar forms of which we speak. You call a clause what others would call a phrase. I think that just has to do with terminology. Do you think calling "after eating his dinner" a clause instead of a phrase will make a difference in how effective English language learning and teaching will be?

    As I said before, my original idea was to talk about the type of discourse in which each form may be more likely to occur. I would consider both written and spoken discourse. Would you happen to have anything to say about that? :)




    Or maybe I should use the word "text" instead of "discourse".


    Good health,

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Mode

    After he ate - Drop the subject, and make the verb -ing.

    :)
    But, then, that rule (i.e., drop the subject and make the verb -ing), would make it ating:

    After he ate,... => After ating, ...

    All the best, :D

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    Quote Originally Posted by X Mode

    After he ate - Drop the subject, and make the verb -ing.

    :)
    But, then, that rule (i.e., drop the subject and make the verb -ing), would make it ating:

    After he ate,... => After ating, ...

    All the best, :D

    That's a good point, but -ing forms only exist with the present form of a verb. I guess I didn't say that because I mgiht have thought everyone would know that.

    going, - not wenting

    drinking - not dranking


    :D :) 8)

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