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  1. #1
    Secondtongue is offline Newbie
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    Default Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    I have once taken a quick glance at a book that says in case 2 consecutive plosive voiceless consonants, the 1st is not pronounced. Examples are "script" and "tempt". it was said that both "p"s. In the above examples should not be pronounced though the phonetic symbol "p"s still appear there in almost all the dictionaries.

    The book also also says when a voiced consonant placed at the very end of a word, it is not pronounced as "voiced" or "devoiced" such as in "describe", the "b" will be pronounced as "p". Another example, the "d" will be pronounced as "t" as in "wide". Since a lot phonetic symbols could be typed as normal English letter that I couldn't quote other examples. Please tell me if there are such rules or if you could give me the name of such books on pronunciation rules. I tried to locate such books but my attempts were in vain.
    Last edited by Secondtongue; 21-May-2008 at 08:45.

  2. #2
    Neillythere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    Hi

    As a Brit & mentor, but not a teacher, I would suggest that you give the book concerned one last glance as you file it under WPB (Waste Paper Bin).

    The examples that you quote are totally incorrect!

    The "p" in "script" and "tempt" IS pronounced.
    The "b" in "describe" is pronounced as "b".
    The "d" in "wide" is pronounced as "d".

    Regards
    NT

  3. #3
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    I think what the errant book is trying to say is that The "p" in "script" and "tempt" is pronounced differently from the "p" in "tip" (unless that /p/ is followed by a /t/, as in "tiptoe" and "attempted"- when the explosion part of the [p] is usually dropped [but the occlusion part is not]).

    b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondtongue View Post
    The book also also says when a voiced consonant placed at the very end of a word, it is not pronounced as "voiced" or "devoiced" such as in "describe", the "b" will be pronounced as "p". Another example, the "d" will be pronounced as "t" as in "wide".
    Yes. It's called "devoicing" (Google it) and it happens at the end of a sentence; e.g., to describe or before a voiceless sound; e.g., wide shoe.

    The vocal folds in preparation for the voicless sound of <sh> in wide shoes or the end of an utterance as in to describe, don't vibrate, and so the [b] of to describe sounds like [p] but unreleased (no aspiration/puff of air) as in the [p] in spat; the [d] of wide shoes sounds like [t] but unreleased as in the [t] in stamp.


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    Secondtongue is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    (In reply to Neillythere) I listened to pronunciation of the words I quoted in several on-line dictionary, one of which is Merriam-Webster. But I don't hear those words being pronounced in the way you said. Perhaps it's my poor listening ability. Thanks for giving your advice.
    Last edited by Secondtongue; 21-May-2008 at 17:49.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    Despite my 60+ years of spoken British English, I have never come across "Wide" pronounced with a "t". I thought that it might be an American vs British thing, but:

    In all the phonetics that I have seen, including American English, I have seen no hint of a "t".

    It is true that the Webster audio of "wide" does sound, if you listen carefully, as though the "d" is a "dt", but I would never have pronounced it that way - and Websters phonetic version doesn't have any hint of a "t".

    Equally well, I would pronounce "script" and "prompt" with "explosive" "p"'s.
    see also:
    Wide - Definitions from Dictionary.com
    wide Audio Help/waɪd/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wahyd]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    This has not only the audio and the phonetics but the meaning of the phonetics.

    Hope this helps.
    NT

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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    The distinction is between phonemes and allophones, and a discussion of those is of no value in this forum.

    b

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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    Quote Originally Posted by Neillythere View Post
    Despite my 60+ years of spoken British English, I have never come across "Wide" pronounced with a "t".
    It's not pronounced as [t]--I can attest to that as well, and it isn't pronounced as [d] either. The sound we hear is like [d] but without the same degree of vocal fold vibration you'd expect if you used emphasis. For example,

    With emphasis, [d], e.g, wide
    Before a voiceless sound, devoiced [d], e.g., wide shoes

    In linguistics, this is called VOT (voice onset timing), and it refers to the time at which the focal folds start vibrating. When <d> comes before a voiceless sound the folds are already in position for voicelessness, which reduces the amount of time the folds will vibrate for <d>, making <d> sounds like an unaspirated [t].


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    naomimalan is offline Member
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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    The distinction is between phonemes and allophones, and a discussion of those is of no value in this forum.

    b
    Exactly.

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    Default Re: Is there rule for prounciating 2 consecutive plosive consonants

    Your first query has nothing to do with voicing, but articulation and aspiration.
    Voicing simply means your vocal chords vibrate. Try holding your hand to your throat and feel this yourself:
    /d/, /g/,and /b/ are voiced. You should feel your throat vibrate.
    /t/, /k/,and /p/ are voiceless. Your vocal chords will not vibrate at all.
    Other than voicing/devoicing, /t/ and /d/ are articulated in exactly the same fashion, as are /g/ and /k/, as are /b/ and /p/.

    What is aspiration?
    Aspiration is that puff of air that occurs after the onset of /t/, /k/,and /p/ in word initials. Hold your hand in front of your mouth and feel the puff as you say these sounds. Feel the explosion of air.

    Note that aspiration is dependent on the position of the consonant. Words like /script/, which end in /p/ and /t/ will not make your throat vibrate and will produce a small plosion after the final consonant. The /p/ is hence voiceless, without aspiration. (Compare this to /whippet/ and you'll hear aspiration of both voiceless consonants).

    Your second query is about voicing of the /d/ in /wide/, the /b/ in /describe/, and could also apply to the /g/ in /gig/. Each one of these words has no syllable beginning with these consonants, hence the voicing is not heard. You are not exactly saying /t/, /p/, or /k/, the voiceless counterparts, at the end of these words, but articulating your mouth in the positions common to both voiced and unvoiced counterparts.

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