8)Originally Posted by NewHope
- For Teachers
Unfortunately native speakers have their own idea of what is said and what is not. For the same reason, "icy", "flintstone-faced" or "unqualmed" are incorrect, even though you could find the beginning of some logic behind them.I think the neighbours could call him both thick-skinned and shameless. And they are somewhat interchangable.
Besides, it is very difficult for non-native to determine if two words are interchangeable, as you have to master the very nuances and subtleties of both words to make such a statement.
8)Originally Posted by NewHope
I agree with Francois. :)
Shameless and thick skinned is two different things. Given your scenario one might think that those two things are related in meaning. ONLY in that particular context you think of the guy as a shameless piece of dirt.Originally Posted by Wai_Wai
Take another scenario: say a kid in school is pretty "slow" and not doing all that great. Other kids razz him every day by calling him stupid and insulting him beyond belief. He shruggs it all off and thinks nothing of it.
Question: Does that make him shameless?...
No, he did it very well, because the kids razzed him first while he just took a positive self-defence.Originally Posted by Natalie27
Hi, correct me if I'm wrong.Originally Posted by Natalie27
I think I know their differences.
Thick-skinned means one is insensitive to any insult or criticism.
Shameless means one will not feel sorry/sad for its wrongdoing, immoral doing.
If the above is correct, I do think they can sometimes be interchangable if the content permits.
The question NewHope asked is:
> Do you think if "thick-skinned" CAN mean "shameless"?
So that's why I say it is possible.
He did not ask whether one means another, but one CAN mean another.
Any comment is perfectly welcome.
All native English speakers' opinions here were correct.
Now I speak to you with Chinese Wai Wai.
Thick skinned本意基本上是指“无动于衷”， 因此所有英美加等英语国家词典均不收入 Thick skinned = 厚颜无耻 这个释义。这样定义是完全准确的。而我遇到所有的这些国家的人（这个问题我以前在其它美国论坛提到过）均指 出 thick-skinned 不含“厚颜无耻”含义，甚至，该词有褒义倾向，比如对非难与指责表现"thick-skinned"，指这个人态度豁达大度，不斤斤计较。那么你举的那个婚外情例子是怎么回事呢？老婆认为婚 外情是可耻的，而做老公的还无动于衷，那还不可耻么？翻译时为了简练，就直接用“厚颜无耻”替 代“无动于衷 ==>>可耻”这个过程，但你不能因此说“无动于衷 = 厚颜无耻”。因为这两个词是有本质区别的。
I speak with you in Chinese.Originally Posted by NewHope
我有时只能打繁体字 (因不懂其字碼). (如你不明白的話, 請告訴我. 我會把它們轉為簡体字.)
Thick-skinned 意指對批評/辱罵无动于衷 (中性詞). Shameless = 厚颜无耻 (贬义詞).
你说不能因此说“无动于衷 = 厚颜无耻”, 我認同.
我想必解釋差劲, 令人噴飯. 在此致謙.
題目問thick-skinned ""可以"" 說为厚颜无耻(shameless)嗎?
我想如上文下理許可下, thick-skinned可帶有shameless之意. 我便举了婚外情的例子. 在这里, 老公被怜人罵也无动于衷, 這是可耻的. 故此时的thick-skinned有shameless的味道.
我誤导了大家以为我在說“无动于衷 = 厚颜无耻”, 我真是太差勁.
- 簡言之, thick-skinned 解无动于衷, 視情況而定, 它或可带有厚颜无耻的成份
- thick-skinned本身不等於否定了有厚颜无耻的成份, 只是它不是一定有厚颜无耻的成份
I dare say that "thick-skinned" is a universal concept, that it shares the same meaning across cultures. I know that, in Japan, for example, to be thick-skinned is associated with shameless. To be thick-skinned means to be inconsiderate of another's feelings, to ignore criticism, constructive or destructive, which, in Japan, is considered shameless. One should always take into consideration the thoughts of others, and if they don't, well, then, they will eventually be made to feel guilty about it because hammering down the nail that sticks up , a famous Japanese idiom, express the full-bodied foundation of the culture. This is a group dependent society and so majority rules; What other people think of you is important because in a group dependent society the group says what goes! If you pay heed to their advice/criticism, it will grant you safe passage through life. So being open to others (i.e., accepting criticism) as opposed to being closed to others (i.e., ignoring criticism) is what it means to be Japanese. In short, not feeling guilty about not accepting criticism makes one shameless, whereas feeling guilty about not accepting criticism is what makes one a part of the group. :D No guilt? Aha! You're shameless. I believe that's the meaning in Chinese that NewHope and you were discussing, correct?Originally Posted by Wai_Wai
In English, thick-skinned means, not sensitive to criticism, also, which, in my culture, Canadian culture, can be considered a good quality or bad quality. 'good' in the sense that a person who is thick-skinned doesn't allow the trivial things in life to bother/upset him/her. The less you let bother you, the stronger/better off you are.
Sam: Did you hear what they said about you on the evening news? It wasn't very pleasant.
Max: I heard it, but I chose not to listen to it. The criticism was unfair.
Sam: You're thick-skinned. I would have been crying my eyes out if it were me.
Canada is not a group society. It's individualism all the way. (Ahem, our independence separates us from the old country). Since we are not a group dependent society, what people have to say re: criticism is up to the individual to decide if s/he wants to listen to it or not. That is, s/he has a choice. There is no group per se, aside from parental advice--which is often is not always worth considering. S/he is not made to feel as if s/he has to or must or has an obligation to one's family or whathaveyou in order to satisfy some unwritten law. In Canada, being thick-skinned can save you, whereas in Japan, being thick-skinned can break you. :wink:
In English, rarely does 'thick-skinned' refer to a 'bad' quality, 'bad' in the sense that a person who is thick-skinned may not be as emotionally in-tune with the world as we would like them to be. The more you ignore criticism, the more likely you'll lose the ability to determine whether the criticism is valid (i.e., whether you should listen to it) or ignore it.
Pat: Max can be so thick-skinned sometimes!
Sam: I know what you mean. Max just doesn't care when Max should care.
In short, In Japanese, thick-skinned and shameless are related to guilt. In English, shameless and thick-skinned, although they share one similarity (i.e., lack of sensitivity), are not related. They express a lack a sensitivity for two different things:
shameless: not sensitive to feeling guilty
thick-skinned: not sensative to criticism.
In Canada, one shouldn't feel guilty when faced with criticism. If it's constructive, it has the power to make one stronger; If it's destructive, it has the power to destroy a person's diginity and spirit, which may result in the person feeling angry or sad, or both. As for guilt, well, what's there to feel guilty about? There's no group pressure. As an individual, I make up my own mind.
In Japan, accepting criticism is par for the course; it's ingrained in the culture: one listens to the group, no questions asked, whereas, in English, it's up to the individual to decide what's worth listening to and what's not worth listening to. Being thick-skinned has nothing to do with 'guilt' as it does in Japan. In Canada, being thick-skinned is a good thing: it can save you from a life of worry and trouble, whereas in a group depedent society, such as Japan, being thick-skinned is less preferred: it can break you. If you don't listen to the group, ties with your family, your group, and your culture will be severed, and quickly.
All the best, :D