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  1. #1
    vil is offline VIP Member
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    Default Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Dear teachers,

    Would you be kind enough explain to me the rules concerning the usage of Perfect Participle and Present Participle in the following situations?

    1.1. Having crossed the bridge, we went in the direction of the town.
    1.2. Coming home, I immediately went to bed, because I was very tired.

    2.1. Having read the book, I returned it to the library.
    2.2. Saying this, she left the room.


    3.1. Having translated the article he put the dictionary on the shelf.
    3.2. Translating the article he looked up into the dictionary.


    4.1. Having written the report he gave it to his teacher.
    4.2. Writting the report he looked through many books.


    Thank you in advance for your efforts.

    Regards.

    V.

  2. #2
    Soup's Avatar
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Here is how I interpret the two:

    1.1. Having [now/just] crossed the bridge, we went in the direction of the town.

    1.2. [Upon]Coming home, I immediately went to bed, because I was very tired.

  3. #3
    albertino is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Quote Originally Posted by vil View Post
    Dear teachers,

    Would you be kind enough explain to me the rules concerning the usage of Perfect Participle and Present Participle in the following situations?

    1.1. Having crossed the bridge, we went in the direction of the town.
    1.2. Coming home, I immediately went to bed, because I was very tired.

    2.1. Having read the book, I returned it to the library.
    2.2. Saying this, she left the room.


    3.1. Having translated the article he put the dictionary on the shelf.
    3.2. Translating the article he looked up into the dictionary.

    (Not a teacher)
    To my humble understanding, the rules for the use of the Perfect Participle and the Present Participle are as follows:

    Having crossed the bridge, we went in the direction of the town =>
    After crossing the bridge, we went in the direction of the town.(The action of the perfect tense takes place first and later on the action in the main clause)

    Coming home, I immediately went to bed, because I was very tired.=>
    When I come home, I immediately went to bed.... (Both actions take place at the same time or nearly one after the other)
    (Not a teacher)
    Last edited by albertino; 01-Jun-2008 at 12:09.

  4. #4
    vil is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Hi Soup,

    Thank you for your prompt reply as well as for your acceptable interpretation. Concerning the rules in question it is a far cry from what I expected. I anticipated as much as the following rules:

    1. Participle I Indefinite (Present) usually denotes an action simultaneous with the action expressed by the finite verb; depending on the tense form of the finite verb it may refer to the present, past, or future. (That is just what I simply couldn’t make out why it is like that).

    For example:

    When reading the Pickwick Papers, one can’t help laughing.
    When reading The Pickwick Papers, I couldn’t help laughing.
    When reading The Pickwick papers, you will roar with laughing.
    Not being able to read, think, or work, Bathsheba asked Liddy to stay and breakfast with her.

    2. Participle I Perfect denotes an action prior to the action expressed by the finite verb.

    For example:

    Mr. Bumble, having spread a handkerchief over his knees… began to eat and drink.

    Having come home, he began to do his lessons.

    Having closed the drawing-room door on him, Isabel awaited a little, absorbed in her own thoughts.

    Regards.

    V.

  5. #5
    Soup's Avatar
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Quote Originally Posted by vil View Post
    Hi Soup,

    Thank you for your prompt reply as well as for your acceptable interpretation. Concerning the rules in question it is a far cry from what I expected. I anticipated as much as the following rules:

    1. Participle I Indefinite (Present) usually denotes an action simultaneous with the action expressed by the finite verb; depending on the tense form of the finite verb it may refer to the present, past, or future. (That is just what I simply couldn’t make out why it is like that).

    For example:

    When reading the Pickwick Papers, one can’t help laughing.
    When reading The Pickwick Papers, I couldn’t help laughing.
    When reading The Pickwick papers, you will roar with laughing.
    Not being able to read, think, or work, Bathsheba asked Liddy to stay and breakfast with her.

    2. Participle I Perfect denotes an action prior to the action expressed by the finite verb.

    For example:

    Mr. Bumble, having spread a handkerchief over his knees… began to eat and drink.

    Having come home, he began to do his lessons.

    Having closed the drawing-room door on him, Isabel awaited a little, absorbed in her own thoughts.

    Regards.

    V.
    Vil, I am not sure what it is exactly that you are asking. You have the rules, and the interpretations. Was there something else?

  6. #6
    vil is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Hi Albertino,

    Thank you for your reply as well as for your accurate description of the rules in question. I get in a difficult position because the tense distinctions of all verbals, especially of the participle in our case are not absolute but relative. (Please see my post above).

    If the mentioned rules stand good how could you explain to me the usage of the Participle I Indefinite in the following sentences where we have to use Participle I Perfect in accordance with the mentioned above rules?

    Turning down an obscure street and entering an obscurer lane, he went up to a smith’s shop. (After he…..) (not in accordance with the rule)

    Hearing tootstep below he rose and went to the top of the stairs. (After he…. ) (not in accordance with the rule)

    It is most likely that you will try and find some way of explanation with some notorious exeption to the rule.

    But:

    After he had passed all his examinations he went to see his parents.

    Having passed all his examinations he went to see his parents. (in accordance with the rule)

    For your information the English Participles in following four sentences have different form but in my natural language they are all alike (one and the same word).

    1. The students discussing the article are very excited and noisy.
    2. The students discussing the article were very excited.
    3. The students who discussed the article have already left.
    4. The sudents who had discussed the article decided to publish it.

    Regards.

    V.
    Last edited by vil; 31-May-2008 at 19:26.

  7. #7
    bhaisahab's Avatar
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Quote Originally Posted by vil View Post
    Hi Albertino,

    Thank you for your reply as well as for your accurate description of the rules in question. I get in a difficult position because the tense distinctions of all verbals, especially of the participle in our case are not absolute but relative. (Please see my post above).

    If the mentioned rules stand good how could you explain to me the usage of the Participle I Indefinite in the following sentences where we have to use Participle I Perfect in accordance with the mentioned above rules?

    Turning down an obscure street and entering an obscurer lane, he went up to a smith’s shop. (After he…..) (not in accordance with the rule)

    Hearing tootstep below he rose and went to the top of the stairs. (After he…. ) (not in accordance with the rule)

    It is most likely that you will try and find some way of explanation with some notorious exeption to the rule.

    But:

    After he had passed all his examinations he went to see his parents.

    Having passed all his examinations he went to see his parents. (in accordance with the rule)

    For your information the English Participles in following four sentences have different form but in my natural language they are all alike (one and the same word).

    1. The students discussing the article are very excited and noisy.
    2. The students discussing the article were very excited.
    3. The students who discussed the article have already left.
    4. The sudents who had discussed the article decided to publish it.

    Regards.

    V.
    1. The students discussing the article are very excited and noisy. Present continuous tense.
    2. The students discussing the article were very excited. Simple past.
    3. The students who discussed the article have already left. Present pefect
    4. The sudents who had discussed the article decided to publish it. Present perfect.

  8. #8
    vil is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Hi bhaisahab,

    Thank you for showing interest in my desperate attempt to study English language. Thank you also for your grammatical specifying.

    When I compared the mentioned above four sentences I paid a special attention to how the Bulgarian participles are rendered into English. For your information I took the view that there are valid the following tense-interrelations.

    1. The students discussing the article are very excited and noisy. Present continuous tense.
    (the action of the Participle goes at the same time with the verb-predicate)

    2. The students discussing the article were very excited. Simple past.
    (the action of the Participle goes at the same time with the verb-predicate)

    3. The students who discussed the article have already left. Present pefect
    (the action of he Participle goes before the action of the verb-predicate)

    4. The sudents who had discussed the article decided to publish it. Present perfect.
    (the action of he Participle goes before the action of the verb-predicate)

    Thank you again for backing.

    Regards.

    V.

  9. #9
    albertino is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Quote Originally Posted by vil View Post
    Hi bhaisahab,

    Thank you for showing interest in my desperate attempt to study English language. Thank you also for your grammatical specifying.

    When I compared the mentioned above four sentences I paid a special attention to how the Bulgarian participles are rendered into English. For your information I took the view that there are valid the following tense-interrelations.

    1. The students (who are) discussing the article are very excited and noisy. Present continuous tense.
    (the action of the Participle goes at the same time with the verb-predicate)

    2. The students (who discussed) discussing the article were very excited. Simple past.
    (the action of the Participle goes at the same time with the verb-predicate)

    3. The students who discussed the article have already left. Present pefect(discussed?)(why is it not Simple past?)
    (the action of he Participle goes before the action of the verb-predicate)

    4. The sudents who had discussed the article decided to publish it. Present perfect(had discussed?)(why is it not Past Perfect?).
    (the action of he Participle goes before the action of the verb-predicate)

    Thank you again for backing.

    Regards.

    V.
    Sorry, vil. I can't follow your reasoning at items 3 & 4.

  10. #10
    albertino is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Perfect Participle and Present Participle

    Quote Originally Posted by vil View Post
    Hi Albertino,

    Turning down an obscure street and entering an obscurer lane, he went up to a smith’s shop. (After he…..) (not in accordance with the rule)

    Hearing tootstep below he rose and went to the top of the stairs. (After he…. ) (not in accordance with the rule)
    (Not a teacher)
    Well, vil, in the above examples, when the sequence of actions taken is obvious, we can use the Present Participle (Participle I Indefinite in your language) instead of the Perfect Participle ( Participle I Perfect in your language). However when the time span of occurrence between two actions is long, the Perfect Participle should be used instead of the Present Participle. For example, "Not having received an answer, I wrote again." Hope that helps.
    Last edited by albertino; 01-Jun-2008 at 15:26.

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