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  1. #21
    e2e4 is offline Senior Member
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    Yeah,

    the present subjunctive particle has exactly the same form as the infinitive;therefore the present subjunctive of to be is be for all persons, and the present subjunctive of all other verbs is the same as their present tense except that s isn't added for the third person singular.

    The e2e4 comes on here. (present tense)
    Long come to e2e4! (subjunctive)

    The past subjunctive particle has exactly the same form as the simple past except that with the verb be the past subjunctive form is either I/he/she/it was or I/he/she/it were (to emphasis the unreality), (mostly were is used)

    Past subjunctives are often known as unreal pasts.

    Use of the present subjunctive

    1) mostly to express a wish or hope.
    Also, for example
    If need be I'll give you a few examples. (be-present subjunctive)

    Use of the past subjunctive

    1) can be used after as though to emphasis unreality or improbability or a doubt in the present
    He talks as though he knew the grammar perfectly

    2) can be used in a phrase

    It is time + subject + past subjunctive
    It is time we went. (we are late),(now, present again)

    There is similar expression It is time to go

    but the meaning isn't the same. I already explained about in some of my last posts.

    In addition,
    concerning some grammatical mistakes in my sentences I already explained that I do not care about at this level.
    I always focus on the matter we are talking about.

    Under this topic we were discussing the phrase It's time we went home and not complex infinitives or perfect conditional.

    But by the way you might tell me which of these forms are complex infinitives:

    A) to have read, to have found, etc
    B) to have been talking, to have been sleeping etc..
    C) He is hoping to be thanked
    D) I was hoping to have been thanked but for that I am dissapointed.


    Finally I already said
    I might have used
    There was no any other reason for you to go home. instead of
    There was no any other reason for you to (((should))) have gone home. (should shouldn't have been there), (to have gone is a very complex infinitive actually perfect infinitive)
    And I also explained what had pulled me to say that way.

    Simple infinitive to go could be good enough because the auxiliary was in the sentence point to the past very well.

  2. #22
    e2e4 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Just to add what came on my mind.
    @Clark
    Maybe you've mixed all of this with the unreal conditionals in the past.

    I would have got a seat in the train if I had come in time.
    I could have helped if I had been there.

    Sorry for dropping in.
    Anyway I'll be off on here in the next few days.
    see ya,
    see ye

    Cheerio. Have a good time.
    Last edited by e2e4; 12-Jun-2008 at 23:23.

  3. #23
    Clark is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    e2e4,

    1. You refer to subjunctive forms as 'particles'. It's the first time that I've heard a verb form being called 'particle'. Is it a neologism of your own?

    2. If you label a subjunctive form identical to the past simple tense as past subjunctive (e.g. He talked as though he knew her), what name do you use for a subjunctive form that indicates a prior action?
    e.g. He talked as though he had seen her before.

    3. Now I understand that by 'very complex infinitive' you mean an analytical form called a perfect or a passive infinitive. Your 'very creative approach' to using grammatical terms sometimes prevents me from understanding your writings.

    4. No, I haven't 'mixed up anything with unreal conditionals'. The fact is that the same subjunctive forms are used in sentences with unreal condition.

    e.g. If I knew her I would talk to her.
    If I had known her I would have talked to her.

    'Knew' and 'had known' are subjunctive forms - present subjunctive and past subjunctive, respectively.

    5. It's a pity you have to leave. I will certainly miss your wonderful prose. Enjoy your trip.

  4. #24
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    e2e4,

    2. If you label a subjunctive form identical to the past simple tense as past subjunctive (e.g. He talked as though he knew her), what name do you use for a subjunctive form that indicates a prior action?
    e.g. He talked as though he had seen her before.


    4. No, I haven't 'mixed up anything with unreal conditionals'. The fact is that the same subjunctive forms are used in sentences with unreal condition.

    e.g. If I knew her I would talk to her.
    If I had known her I would have talked to her.

    'Knew' and 'had known' are subjunctive forms - present subjunctive and past subjunctive, respectively.
    Hello Clark and E2e4.

    The subjunctive, as a form, is almost extinct in English. There are only a couple of forms left.

    The examples in 2, above, which I've put in red are not examples of subjunctive forms. They are backshifts to illustrate reported speech.

    In 4, which I've blued, in the example sentences,

    If I knew her I would talk to her.

    If I had known her I would have talked to her.


    'knew' and 'had known' are not subjunctive forms.


    ß 61. subjunctive

    ...

    English has had a subjunctive mood since Old English times, but most of the functions of the old subjunctive have been taken over by auxiliary verbs like may and should, and the subjunctive survives only in very limited situations.

    It has a present and past form. The present form is identical to the base form of the verb, so you only notice it in the third person singular, which has no final -s, and in the case of the verb be, which has the form be instead of am, is, and are. The past subjunctive is identical with the past tense except in the case of the verb be, which uses were for all persons: If I were rich Ö, If he were rich Ö, If they were richÖ.

    § 61. subjunctive. 1. Grammar. The American Heritage Book of English Usage. 1996
    There has been, and still is, much disagreement over this and other forms/collocations in English. What's important to ESLs is that they understand how to use these different forms. It's not important that they learn about these different forms.

    Students that get hung up on the subjunctive often miss all the other ways we have to say the same things;

    If he were to go there, ...

    If he was to go there, ...

    Imagine that we go there, ...

    Let's say that we go there, ...

    Say that we go there, ...

  5. #25
    henz988 is offline Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    As far as I know, Itís time we go is also acceptable, but there may be a BE/AE difference in usage. If you're writing for an exam, avoid "It's time we go."

    As above mentioned, Itís time we should go is definitely wrong.


  6. #26
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    tzfujimino is online now Key Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by henz988 View Post
    As far as I know, Itís time we go is also acceptable, but there may be a BE/AE difference in usage. If you're writing for an exam, avoid "It's time we go."

    As above mentioned, Itís time we should go is definitely wrong.
    Hi, henz988!
    Why is it that "It's time we should go" is definitely wrong?

  7. #27
    henz988 is offline Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    An American friend told me so.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by henz988 View Post
    An American friend told me so.
    I see!
    So.."It's time we go." is commonly used in America.
    Then...I wonder why "It's time we should go." is unacceptable....
    Thank you so much, henz988!

  9. #29
    Soup's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by tzfujimino View Post
    Hi, henz988!
    Why is it that "It's time we should go" is definitely wrong?
    After a whole day of hard work I'm very tired. It's time [that] we _____ home.

    A) go <see note below>
    B) shall
    C) went traditional
    D) should go colloquial
    It's time we left means in effect the time has come when we should leave, which is why you'll hear some speakers use the non-traditional form, D) 'should go'.


    __________________________
    Note,

    "It's time we go home"
    <a plan to do something, a "real" condition for a future action.>

    "It's time we went home"
    <a regret that we haven't done something, more focus on the past non-action, and a wishful thought about the future action that may or may not take place—an "unreal" (or unsure) condition for a future action.>

    See Grammar Logs for Sunday, December 9, 2001.

  10. #30
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soup View Post
    After a whole day of hard work I'm very tired. It's time [that] we _____ home.

    A) go <see note below>
    B) shall
    C) went traditional
    D) should go colloquial
    It's time we left means in effect the time has come when we should leave, which is why you'll hear some speakers use the non-traditional form, D) 'should go'.

    What does 'traditional' mean, Soup?

    __________________________
    Note,

    "It's time we go home"
    <a plan to do something, a "real" condition for a future action.>

    "It's time we went home"
    <a regret that we haven't done something, more focus on the past non-action, and a wishful thought about the future action that may or may not take placeóan "unreal" (or unsure) condition for a future action.>

    See Grammar Logs for Sunday, December 9, 2001.
    I warned Casiopeia [sp?] about this website a couple of years ago. Evidently, she didn't get around to telling you about it. You would think that she would have done so seeing as you two share so many similarities. It's almost as if you two were sisters/brothers/twins.

    Although their advice in this case seems to be pretty good their grammar site is riddled with errors, so, overall, I don't think that it's a great idea to be sending ESLs there.

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