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  1. #71
    Clark is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: "It's time we went home?" or "It's time we should go home?"

    Quote Originally Posted by tzfujimino View Post
    I had known "It's time we went home" is perfectly correct. However, I hadn't been able to find any reasons to make "It's time we should..." incorrect.

    I don't think it's incorrect either. Though rather infrequent. It looks 'should' has some weak modal meaning here.

  2. #72
    bhaisahab's Avatar
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    Default Re: "It's time we went home?" or "It's time we should go home?"

    Why isn't "It's time we should go home" possible?
    I personally cannot see any grammatical errors here.


    Ok guys, calm down, this is perfectly possible;

    "It's time (that) we should go home."

  3. #73
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    Hi Riverkid,
    As is known, in the older periods English used to be a synthetic language, and its subjunctive forms were built up synthetically, by means of inflections. If you are talking about those forms, I agree with you - they are 'almost extinct in English.'

    But the fact is that the place of the old subjunctive forms has been taken by analytical forms in present-day English. They serve the same purpose - they represent an action as hypothetical, and you can hardly include them in the same group together with the indicative mood forms.
    e.g. If I had known her better, I wouldn't have talked to her.
    Isn't 'had known' an unreal action here? So why do you object to labelling it as subjunctive? If it is not subjunctive then which mood is it?
    Hello Clark. I apologise for missing this posting.

    There are many ways to express the subjunctive mood and as it happens many of them are indicative forms.

    1. Imagine we're sitting on Mars, watching that new space station land.

    2. Say we're sitting on the bottom of the ocean, ...

    3. Pretend that I'm a Grizzly Bear, ...

    4. [Two homeless guys are talking] If we go to the moon, ...

    5. If I was Clark, I'd be able to speak Russian.

    Numbers 1 to 4 are examples of pretty remote possibility, #'s 3 & 5 are clear counterfactuals. These aren't subjunctive forms yet they convey subjunctive ideas. For English grammar, there are only a few forms that are described as subjunctive forms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    By the way, referring to some questionable definitions taken from sources full of dogmas can hardly be regarded as a convincing argument in a scientific discussion.

    Rgds
    .......
    I agree. Do you consider the American Heritage Dictionary to be full of dogma?

    I hope that you're now having and will continue to have a wonderful, wonderful day, week, month, year, ...

    Cordially,
    riverkid

  4. #74
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: "It's time we went home?" or "It's time we should go home?"

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    Why isn't "It's time we should go home" possible?
    I personally cannot see any grammatical errors here.


    Ok guys, calm down, this is perfectly possible;

    "It's time (that) we should go home."
    I third that or fourth that or whatever number we're at now.

  5. #75
    rj1948 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: "It's time we went home?" or "It's time we should go home?"

    see the title.
    There is a multiple choice as follows,
    After a whole day of hard work I'm very tired. It's time we _____ home.
    A) go B) shall C) went D) should go
    the answer is C.
    But I think C and D are both right.
    Is D correct here? If not, could you give me the reason? THANKS

    What most of us have forgotten or ignored is , the thread srarter's question.(Kindly see above).
    The correct choice is went.
    He asks why not should go.
    As suggested by many,if the examinee chooses should go instead of went,will he be awrded positive marking?
    I have seen this type of question many times and the answer is the past form of the verb.Kindly see my post #2.
    On seeing this , if many students take should go as correct answer,
    and answers so in a test,will they not be penalised for no fault of theirs.

    I have cited three websites in which the usage of "IT'S TIME WE WENT HOME is discussed.Kindly see those.May I give one more situation?
    When an irritated teacher tells a student"It's time you learnt maths,"does he mean that the student sould learn maths?
    During a conversation,If a person looks at his watch and says,"It's time, I went home.'Do we mean that the decision was taken for a future action?
    It's time we went is different from It's time we should go.ALBEIT VERY SLIGHTLY.
    Regards,
    rj1948.
    Kindly close this thread.
    Last edited by rj1948; 29-Jun-2008 at 17:18.

  6. #76
    Clark is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Hello Riverkid,
    I've underlined my comments in the message below.

    Quote Originally Posted by riverkid View Post
    There are many ways to express the subjunctive mood and as it happens many of them are indicative forms.

    a) Does it mean that you agree that in 'She looked as if she had seen him before' the form 'had seen' is used to express the subjunctive mood?

    1. Imagine we're sitting on Mars, watching that new space station land.

    b) In my opinion it's the verb 'imagine' that creates a hypothetical situation due to its lexical meaning. This sentence has nothing to do with subjunctive mood as a grammatical category. By the way, 'imagine' here is used in the imperative, and not the indicative mood. Or would you say that the indicative form 'imagine' is used in the imperative mood?

    2. Say we're sitting on the bottom of the ocean, ...

    3. Pretend that I'm a Grizzly Bear, ...

    c) The same comment apllies to #2 and #3. You need to distinguish between a grammatical category and a lexical meaning of a word.

    4. [Two homeless guys are talking] If we go to the moon, ...

    d) This is definitely not the subjunctive but the indicative mood. The reason why they understand the possibility of going to the moon as real is because they are crazy. But this has nothing to do with the subjunctive mood. From their perspective it's real.

    These aren't subjunctive forms yet they convey subjunctive ideas.

    e) I like this compromise!



    I agree. Do you consider the American Heritage Dictionary to be full of dogma?

    f) I'm just against using such references as an argument in a discussion. Somebody has written something ... Some people still think that the Earth is flat, however it doesn't make the planet flat does it?

    I hope that you're now having and will continue to have a wonderful, wonderful day, week, month, year, ...

    d) A most enjoyable discussion, I should say. I hope you are enjoying it as well.

    Cordially,
    riverkid

    Awaiting your reply.
    Yours sincerely,
    Clark

  7. #77
    riverkid is offline Banned
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Originally Posted by riverkid
    There are many ways to express the subjunctive mood and as it happens many of them are indicative forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    a) Does it mean that you agree that in 'She looked as if she had seen him before' the form 'had seen' is used to express the subjunctive mood?
    Hello again, my friend.

    Yes, it does express the subjunctive mood. But it isn't a subjunctive form. Maybe we can clear this up if we refer to my example #5, which seems to have been deleted.

    5. If I was Clark, I would be able to speak Russian.

    'was' is not a subjunctive form yet it clearly expresses a subjunctive idea, wouldn't you agree? It expresses a meaning that is identical to,

    If I were Clark, ...

    Both entail that "I am not Clark". Should we call "If I was Clark" a subjunctive? The point is that, for English, the subjunctive, form wise, is no big deal. We could lose the few remaining forms and the English language and its speakers would suffer not at all.

    What we couldn't afford to lose, [and of course, we shan't], is the subjunctive mood, which is expressible in many ways that aren't strictly subjunctive in form.

    So while the vast majority of subjunctive forms have been lost, and likely will continue to be lost, the subjunctive mood hasn't been, and won't be lost.


    riverkid wrote:
    I agree. Do you consider the American Heritage Dictionary to be full of dogma?


    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    f) I'm just against using such references as an argument in a discussion. Somebody has written something ... Some people still think that the Earth is flat, however it doesn't make the planet flat, does it?
    The Earth isn't flat? Just you wait 'til I google up a few sites. I'll show you!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    d) A most enjoyable discussion, I should say. I hope you are enjoying it as well.
    Indubitably!
    Last edited by riverkid; 17-Jun-2008 at 03:41.

  8. #78
    enydia is offline Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Hi, Teachers.

    I've read your posts and learnt very much, especially about the usage of subjunctive. Perhaps it's not good for me, a learner and beginner, to break in on such a professional 'argument', but I do have some questions that have been confusing me for a long time. So I need your favour, and your pardon if some of my words are very amateur, even absurd and some of my expression is poor, even impolite or hard to understand. :(

    1
    What's the mood of the speaker suggested by the use of 'it's time we went home'?
    In #7, Teacher Hotmetal said the speaker 'is irritated and wants to go'. In # 9, Teacher Clark said it suggested more criticism. In #11, Teacher Riverkid said it was 'used ... to be more deferential, more polite, more unassuming, less demanding'.
    I think there is something conflicting among these views, which is confusing me.

    2
    On some occations, I need to change the tense of the main clause into another one, and I'm really uncertain of how to adapt the tense or form of the subordinate clause.
    Take the following sentences for example:
    (1) He told me it was time we went (OR had gone?) home.
    (2) It will be time we went home (OR go OR were to go?) home.
    What's the rule to determine the tense or form of such clause in subjunctive?

    3
    The construction, it is time sb did sth, seems to be used to express the speaker's subjective thought, suggestion, inclination, etc. Can it be used to indicate some objective facts, such as something happened at the time mentioned?
    In my opinion, it can not. So I will say such sentences without subjunctive as follows:
    (3) Today is wonderful. It is the time my lovely niece is born.
    (4) 2004 was great. It was the time the Greek Olympic Games were held.
    (5) Aug. 8, 2008 will be special. It will be the time the Olympic Games is opened in Beijing.
    Are my amateur thoughts and the sentences I invent correct?

    4
    In #19, Teacher Clark referred to 'knew' as a 'present subjunctive' and 'had knew' as a 'past subjunctive'. To be honest, I prefer the wikipedia's view, which refers to 'know' as a 'present subjunctive', 'knew' as a 'past subjunctive' and 'had known' as a 'pluperfect subjunctive'. (see this page: Subjunctive mood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Although this is only a fomal problem, not a substantial one, I would like to hear some teachers' comments. I think it's helpful in communicating with teachers in future. :)

    BTW
    In the above webpage, there is a statement confusing me very much: if a clause is in a past tense, then a clause subordinate to it cannot be in the past subjunctive, though it might be in the pluperfect subjunctive... Is it true? Is the following sentence grammatical?
    (6) I wished I knew the truth.

    Looking forward to your replies.

    Thanks in advance.

    Enydia
    Last edited by enydia; 17-Jun-2008 at 11:30.

  9. #79
    SUDHKAMP's Avatar
    SUDHKAMP is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: "It's time we went home?" or "It's time we should go home?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    Were you suggesting that I should give it 'some direction' or were you proposing to give 'some direction' yourself? By the way, this is not a chatroom, so if have anything to say on the subjunctive mood which is the topic of the discussion, I'll be more than pleased to hear you out.
    Dear Clark, whatever I had to say has already been posted in the forum. Yes, I agree with you this is not a chat room. Go through all postings before arriving on any conclusion. Please go through all the postings.

  10. #80
    tzfujimino's Avatar
    tzfujimino is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: It's time we went home? or,It's time we should go home?

    Quote Originally Posted by enydia View Post
    Hi, Teachers.

    I've read your posts and learnt very much, especially about the usage of subjunctive. Perhaps it's not good for me, a learner and beginner, to break in on such a professional 'argument', but I do have some questions that have been confusing me for a long time. So I need your favour, and your pardon if some of my words are very amateur, even absurd and some of my expression is poor, even impolite or hard to understand. :(

    1
    What's the mood of the speaker suggested by the use of 'it's time we went home'?
    In #7, Teacher Hotmetal said the speaker 'is irritated and wants to go'. In # 9, Teacher Clark said it suggested more criticism. In #11, Teacher Riverkid said it was 'used ... to be more deferential, more polite, more unassuming, less demanding'.
    I think there is something conflicting among these views, which is confusing me.

    2
    On some occations, I need to change the tense of the main clause into another one, and I'm really uncertain of how to adapt the tense or form of the subordinate clause.
    Take the following sentences for example:
    (1) He told me it was time we went (OR had gone?) home.
    (2) It will be time we went home (OR go OR were to go?) home.
    What's the rule to determine the tense or form of such clause in subjunctive?

    3
    The construction, it is time sb did sth, seems to be used to express the speaker's subjective thought, suggestion, inclanation, etc. Can it be used to indicate some objective facts, such as something happened at the time mentioned?
    In my opinion, it can not. So I will say such sentences without subjunctive as follows:
    (3) Today is wonderful. It is the time my lovely niece is born.
    (4) 2004 was great. It was the time the Greek Olympic Games were held.
    (5) Aug. 8, 2008 will be special. It will be the time the Olympic Games is opened in Beijing.
    Are my amateur thoughts and the sentences I invent correct?

    4
    In #19, Teacher Clark referred to 'knew' as a 'present subjunctive' and 'had knew' as a 'past subjunctive'. To be honest, I prefer the wikipedia's view, which refers to 'know' as a 'present subjunctive', 'knew' as a 'past subjunctive' and 'had known' as a 'pluperfect subjunctive'. (see this page: Subjunctive mood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Although this is only a fomal problem, not a substantial one, I would like to hear some teachers' comments. I think it's helpful in communicating with teachers in future. :)

    BTW
    In the above webpage, there is a statement confusing me very much: if a clause is in a past tense, then a clause subordinate to it cannot be in the past subjunctive, though it might be in the pluperfect subjunctive... Is it true? Is the following sentence grammatical?
    (6) I wished I knew the truth.

    Looking forward to your replies.

    Thanks in advance.

    Enydia
    Well...I've got little knowledge about this field 'Subjunctive Mood.'
    So...I can' really answer your question. I'm sorry...
    I hope some other teachers can help you to sort out your problems.

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