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Thread: IMHO

  1. #11
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    Read his taglines

    FRC

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red5
    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    We started to talk about that in the thread "Is or Are", or something like that. You basically have examples in many of my posts: eg. I use IMO, TY, BTW, b/c, AE, BE, FYI, sth, or some more difficult to guess like IIRC (if I recall correctly), AFAIK (as far as I know)... I hardly ever use the last two, tough. But I do use smileys
    Wai Wai is probably sticking needles in a small FRC doll right now

    FRC
    Seen this? http://www.webenet.com/internetglossary.htm

    I use several of them (FWIW, OTOH...) occasionally, but not all of them. Some of them are very common (ASAP, AKA, WYSIWYG...)

    FRC

  3. #13
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    Default Re: IMHO

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    I've been thinking a bit about that abbreviation discussion we had with Cas, as I felt there was some value in these common "forum" abbreviations, but I couldn't show it convincingly. To me, "forum" is the key word here. The Internet has brought a new kind of medium for communication, something different, with its own rules and culture. Forum discussions are somewhat between friendly correspondence and verbal chat. Informal or colloquial expressions are not out of place, slang is not prohibited, and some spoken expressions, like ungrammatical sentences that are sometimes said but rarely written, are tolerated. I would say it is pretty close to casual conversation. Therefore, people tend to use the same code, but with the extra difficulty of not having the person in front of you. While in a letter you can use the full power of the language to set the mood, the nuances and the context of what you want to say, face-to-face conversations call for a shorter and more direct style. The mood is expressed by other means, like the intonation, the facial expression, gestures etc. This is obviously not an option when communicating via a forum, so other means have been designed, naturally.
    The almighty smiley is the electronic equivalent of the facial expression, and the most striking example. Just everybody seems to rely on it today, to make sure the general tone of the message is not taken amiss. It does not come from some Apple or IBM lab; people just found a way to fill in a gap, and it spread. In my opinion, it perfectly illustrates that the forum medium is apart, and that rules from other media cannot be transposed as is. Conversely, forum rules cannot be blindly exported to other media, as it generally shows that you just failed to understand the very nature of each medium. Using smileys in an essay shows your lack of language skills, in that you could not express the meaning of the smiley with plain words, even though that is what you were expected to do.

    Smiley is not the only way to convey extra-linguistic meaning in forums. The language level, and the length of the message carry some information too. Let's take an example: "I thank you very much". This is a bit on the formal side for a forum. This generally shows real gratefulness. One can almost imagine the person bowing. If he just had said "Thank you", it would have been plainer. "Thanks" is now a bit casual; you could say that to someone who passed you the salt. You would presumably not say "Thanks" to someone who has just spent forty minutes correcting your work. Then, there are abbreviations. "TY" certainly is informal, very short, and can be compared to someone nodding, or smiling, in a conversation. You just want to show that you appreciated it, without breaking the flow of the conversation.

    The flow of the conversation is the second point. As forum messages are close to a verbal chat, people type more or less as they speak. Consequently, the flow of the speech becomes a consideration. In spoken English, one can rely on crutch words and set expressions to keep the flow of the conversation going. Some examples are: that is to say, in my opinion, by the way, by the same token etc. It takes less than one second to pronounce one of them, but it can take much longer to type, especially if you made a typo because you typed too fast and must correct it. While you are busy with the "plumbing" of your sentence, that is, typing the elements that tie your phrases and sentences together, you sort of break the flow of your speech. You spend too much time dealing with these parts, which basically only act like simple math operators, and this can distract you from your ideas and can make you lose the thread of your thoughts. This is specific to forums and similar medium, where one actually types what one would say. In computer languages, punctuation signs or extremely short keywords are used for that purpose. What does it have to do with English? Efficiency. They reduce the difference between the time it takes to think something and the time it takes to type it.

    These new ways of expressing oneself involves some risks, though. The recipient or the other readers may not get what you meant exactly. This sometimes happens with smileys; what was that wink for precisely? As for abbreviations, the recipient must know it or be able to figure it out. That is, there's some extra knowledge to acquire. In addition, the recipient may frown on the usage of such "subterfuges". English, please! Is it that troublesome to write full words? This is a question of habit, actually. People who used their cellphone in the street looked ridiculous fifteen years ago, unless they were traders, businessmen or dealing with security. Then, there is the fear that it could contaminate other media, or god forbids, the whole language. Look at this essay; youngsters cannot write English properly anymore! This is something to watch carefully for sure. It's new, it's trendy, and people who spend a lot of time on forums (eg. students) get carried away with it. Does it mean that it should be ruled out? If yes, then we should ban slang too, and any language "extension" that cannot be used safely in a paper -- even though they fulfill a function.
    Another approach is to teach students that each medium has its own rules, and that they should not be mixed up. Showing that you understand what it means, but it is not desirable for that medium is extra work, but it is probably worth it. For one this is more convincing, and from a more general perspective it doesn't look down on these real language laboratories that these new media are today. New and fast communication ways are bound to produce some monsters, but a part of tomorrow's language is certainly lying in there -- whether we like it or not.

    FRC

    (You are not going to read an essay, definately not!)
    It's very late here. Taka and I have almost the same time zone. It's 3:35 am. But you inspire me something to think. If language were a powerful instrument for the human beings, the world wouldn't be in disorder like this. Smileys are the best way to melt any possible misunderstanding or unpleasantness; they are nice ice breakers! I am not a writer who is capable of composing beautiful notes to my audience. But I do have interesting facial expressions and body gestures. If you have ever pay attention to my post, you will see how these smileys work on me. I love it. :D :D :D :D :D


    We all have our specialties, so it's not fair to ask that everyone should go this way or that way. While someone sets the rules to play, someone else breaks them. I have to sleep now. I feel down beat today.


    Blacknomi,
    :D :D :D :D :D

  4. #14
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    I use some- IMO is probably the one I use most.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francois
    We started to talk about that in the thread "Is or Are", or something like that. You basically have examples in many of my posts: eg. I use IMO, TY, BTW, b/c, AE, BE, FYI, sth, or some more difficult to guess like IIRC (if I recall correctly), AFAIK (as far as I know)... I hardly ever use the last two, tough. But I do use smileys
    Wai Wai is probably sticking needles in a small FRC doll right now

    FRC
    Oh! Feeling dizzy...
    :? What are "IMO, TY, BTW, b/c, AE, BE, FYI..."?
    I don't use ICQ or MSN so often...

    I do know the meaning of "sth" since dictionaries use it first - I usually sleep with dictionaries in my hands. So I know them well 8)

    Folks, typing words in full can train you in diligence - don't get lazier and lazier at typing.

    Not using acronym/abbreviation is good in the most vital sense that I will not be embarrassed by lack of knowledge in web shortforms
    - I can hide my ignorance, man

  6. #16
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    I'm afraid the world will turn out to be like the following one day:

    ----------------------------
    IIAWARD!
    HDYD?
    TMIMPMT.
    LGOFAL.
    C!TAVGI!
    LGT.
    ----------------------------

    8) 8) 8)

  7. #17
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    If people really wish to type faster/easier, I recommend the following:
    - shorten the word instead!
    Let "th" and "thx" as the standard, not "thank" and "thanks".
    Let "u" as the standard, not "you"
    Let "sth, ath, nth" as the standard, not "something, anything, nothing"
    Let "ad" as the standard, not "advertisement"

    There're gains; there're losses.
    - It burdens the brain. Now some words are very similar that careful reading is required. (you might wish not to shorten so much. Try "advert" instead.)
    - It is much much more harder for you to know the pronunciation from them

    (next please)

  8. #18
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    Do the following can help quickening the writing process:
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7844

  9. #19
    Tomasz Klimkiewicz is offline Senior Member
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    Hi, all,

    This is an interesting thread.
    As I may have mentioned in one of my previous posts, I am a member of several other forums whose subjects are, however, not even remotely related to applied linguistics (two of them are on traditional photography and two - modern military aviation and flight simulators), so perhaps they are not directly comparable to what we have here. One thing is certain, though. Virtually all participants in their posts use the many abbreviations and acronyms mentioned above plus many more on regular basis. In those forums, to the list of abbreviations replacing common phrases, such as OTOH - on the other hand, or FWIW - for what it's worth, one must add those connected with the forum topics and constituting part of the jargon, or just glossary, specific to a given field of interest. Therefore we have the obvious B/W or B&W for Black & White, dev for developer (sometimes called 'soup' and used also as a verb! "I souped a roll of TRI-X in D.76" is a very common statement), the frequently encountered A/C stands for 'aircraft carrier', AAM is air-to-air-missile, RWR - radar warning receiver, and so on and so forth...
    What I'm trying to point out is that such things are unavoidable, especially in the Internet forums intended as a means of quick communication and source of information rather than a journal of applied linguistics, where all articles and essays published should comply with the rules of formal written English.
    As regards this particular forum - I just don't know...
    Of course the widespread usage of abbreviations and acronyms in our posts is part of life and should be tolerated. OTOH , I also think that, at least those of us who have received an English education in one form or another, should strive to set an example for the less experienced members, which, in simple terms, means that using too many colloquialisms should definitely be avoided and that the abbreviations inherent to the Internet communication may not be understood by the newbies.

    But that's In My Humble Opinion only :) , while others may or may not agree...

    Regards to all - Tomasz.

    (My heart is beating at a faster pace, I'd hate to have this post repeated the way it happened in the past)

  10. #20
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    I don't use ICQ or MSN so often...
    Neither do I. These media share many characteristics with forums, but are not altogether the same.

    I do know the meaning of "sth" since dictionaries use it first - I usually sleep with dictionaries in my hands. So I know them well
    I suggest to keep them in your hands when you are awake, this is more effective

    Folks, typing words in full can train you in diligence - don't get lazier and lazier at typing.
    This is not about laziness -- there is a fifty-line post up there that explains why. Come to that, we could mention your own laziness regarding learning new words that people use but that are not in your dictionary (but some are!)

    I'm afraid the world will turn out to be like the following one day:
    ----------------------------
    IIAWARD!
    HDYD?
    TMIMPMT.
    LGOFAL.
    C!TAVGI!
    LGT.
    ----------------------------
    People are sometimes afraid of new things that break the existing rules. With the advent of the Internet, some persons feared that everybody would communicate with their computer only, secluded in their home, in a "virtual word"...

    Let "u" as the standard, not "you"
    This one is too intrusive to my liking. I don't want to use an abbreviation every two words either, and that's what we would be ending up doing if it was used.

    FRC

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