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    #1

    succeed, even though, such way

    Dear teachers,

    I have two questions to ask:

    No.1
    He has in him to succeed.
    Does it mean he has all the qualities of success?
    No.2
    ______________he gets an operation, the boy may lose his eharing froever.
    a. unless b. Even though
    The key is 'a'. But I think 'b' is also possible when the doctor is not sure of the result of the operation.
    No.3
    Profucts tend to sell well that are packed in ______ catch the consumer's eye.
    a. such ways as to b. such way as
    c. a way that
    The key is 'a'. Is this a collocation? I mean there aren't collocations such as "such way as" and "a way that". Is that right?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.
    Jiang

  1. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Quote Originally Posted by jiang View Post
    Dear teachers,

    I have two questions to ask:
    Hey, there are three here! :)

    No.1
    He has in him the abilty to succeed.
    Does it mean he has all the qualities of success? Yes, as changed. The original isn't grammatical.

    No.2
    ______________he gets an operation, the boy may lose his eharing froever.
    a. unless b. Even though
    The key is 'a'. But I think 'b' is also possible when the doctor is not sure of the result of the operation.
    Your logic is okay, but the grammar in that case doesn't work. Even though he had the operation.., or Even though will have have the operation... could be used to indicate the uncertainty of the result.

    No.3
    Profucts tend to sell well that are packed in ______ catch the consumer's eye.
    a. such ways as to b. such way as
    c. a way that
    The key is 'a'. Is this a collocation? I mean there aren't collocations such as "such way as" and "a way that". Is that right?
    More common would be "a way that catches." Given that you have to keep the form of the verb "catch" afterwards, you need the one with the "to."

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.
    Jiang
    Hope that helped.

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    #3

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Hi Barb_D,

    Haven't heard from you for a long time!
    Thank you very much for your explanation. I understand No.1 and No.3. I understand part of No.2.

    No.2
    Even though will have have the operation... could be used to indicate the uncertainty of the result.
    Here "will will" suggests future tense. But I have learnt that we can use present tense to indicate future tense. For example
    If he comes I'll tell him about it.
    According to that " Even though he gets an operation" means the same with '' Even though he gets an operation....''. Could you please explain what's wrong with my interpretation?

    I'd like to ask more about No.3.
    If 'b' is ''such way as to'' it is still incorrect because in that case I need to say ''such a way as to' or 'such a way that catches'. Is that right?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang



    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    Hope that helped.

  2. Raymott's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Quote Originally Posted by jiang View Post
    hi barb_d,

    haven't heard from you for a long time!
    Thank you very much for your explanation. I understand no.1 and no.3. I understand part of no.2.

    No.2
    even though will have have the operation... Could be used to indicate the uncertainty of the result.
    here "will will" suggests future tense. But i have learnt that we can use present tense to indicate future tense. For example
    if he comes i'll tell him about it.
    According to that " even though he gets an operation" means the same with '' even though he gets an operation....''. Could you please explain what's wrong with my interpretation? [?] do you mean "even though he will get..."?
    the problem, as barb says, is one of grammar. You cannot say "even though he gets an operation" while referring to the future. You'll note that barb did not write that. "even if" would be acceptable for the future, but not "even though". It's a subtle point, but a. Is the only possible choice.


    i'd like to ask more about no.3.
    if 'b' is ''such way as to'' it is still incorrect because in that case i need to say ''such a way as to' or 'such a way that catches'. Is that right?
    yes, both of those would be right.

    looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang
    r.

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    #5

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Hi Raymott,

    Thank you very much for your explanation. I am trying to figure it out:
    1. Unless he gets an operation, the boy may lose his eharing froever.
    This suggests condition. Is that right?

    2. If I want to express uncertainty of the result there are two structures to express it:
    a. Even though he had the operation... (This is subjunctive mood)
    b. Even though he will have have the operation... (I can't analyze the grammar here).

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.
    Jiang


    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    r.

  3. Raymott's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Quote Originally Posted by jiang View Post
    hi raymott,

    thank you very much for your explanation. I am trying to figure it out:
    1. Unless he gets an operation, the boy may lose his hearing froever.
    This suggests condition. Is that right?
    yes, it's a partial condition. He might not lose his hearing even if he doesn't have the operation. The above only says:
    1. If not(operation) then maybe(deaf). This implies:
    2. If not(operation) then maybe not (deaf). From this, you might also infer: If(operation) then not(deaf), although that's not stated and it's not necessarily true.

    2. If i want to express uncertainty of the result there are two structures to express it:
    there's no certainty with the above. it says "he may lose his hearing" which means he will not necessarily lose his hearing even without the operation. you don't need to use the structures below. But let's say you want to:

    a. even though he had the operation... (this is subjunctive mood)
    no, it's the simple past. He had the operation. Even though he had the operation, he may still lose his hearing.

    the present subjunctive is: Even were he to have the operation, he could still lose his hearing.

    b. even though he will have had the operation... (i can't analyze the grammar here). that was a typo of barb's. It's meant to be the future perfect. "even though he will have had the operation, he may still lose his hearing."

    but i'm not really sure what you want to know. It's possible to make a lot of sentences with varying degrees of uncertainty in any tense you like.
    But the answer is still a.
    As you say, it's multi-choice, and you have to pick one.

    looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.
    Jiang

    r.

    PS: If anyone has a clue about getting capitals to display when answering questions, I'd be glad to hear it.

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    #7

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Dear Barb_D,
    Your explanation helps a lot.
    It suddenly occurred to me "in such a way" is adverbial, is that right?
    If it is then what's the function of 'that catches'. At first I thought is was attributive clause but if 'in such a way' is adverbial then 'that catches' is not attributive clause. Or this is a special use of the structure and that can refer to 'way'. Is that right?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang
    Quote Originally Posted by jiang View Post
    Hi Barb_D,

    Haven't heard from you for a long time!
    Thank you very much for your explanation. I understand No.1 and No.3. I understand part of No.2.

    No.2
    Even though will have have the operation... could be used to indicate the uncertainty of the result.
    Here "will will" suggests future tense. But I have learnt that we can use present tense to indicate future tense. For example
    If he comes I'll tell him about it.
    According to that " Even though he gets an operation" means the same with '' Even though he gets an operation....''. Could you please explain what's wrong with my interpretation?

    I'd like to ask more about No.3.
    If 'b' is ''such way as to'' it is still incorrect because in that case I need to say ''such a way as to' or 'such a way that catches'. Is that right?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang

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    #8

    Re: succeed, even though, such way


    Dear Raymott,

    Thank you so much for your patience and explanation. I think this is beyond me because I still don't quite understand your explanation. And I am trying to figure your explanation out.
    No.1
    yes, it's a partial condition. He might not lose his hearing even if he doesn't have the operation. The above only says:
    1. If not(operation) then maybe(deaf). This implies:
    2. If not(operation) then maybe not (deaf). From this, you might also infer: If(operation) then not(deaf), although that's not stated and it's not necessarily true.

    Do you mean the sentence "Unless he gets an operation, the boy may lose his hearing froever" actually means there might be two results whether he gets the operation or not. If yes, he might be cured or become deaf. If not, he is also face with the two results?

    No.2
    even though he had the operation... (this is subjunctive mood)
    no, it's the simple past. He had the operation. Even though he had the operation, he may still lose his hearing.

    the present subjunctive is: Even were he to have the operation, he could still lose his hearing.
    I guess what you mean is there is a difference between 'even if' and 'even though'. The former refers to something that hasn't take place while the latter refers to something that has already taken place. If this is so then my teacher is wrong. He said ''even if ' and 'even though' bear the same meaning.


    No.3
    even though he will have had the operation... (i can't analyze the grammar here). that was a typo of barb's. It's meant to be the future perfect. "even though he will have had the operation, he may still lose his hearing."
    In 'Even though he will have had the operation ' 'even though' doesn't refer to something that had taken place but a guess of the future. Is that right?
    No.4

    but i'm not really sure what you want to know. It's possible to make a lot of sentences with varying degrees of uncertainty in any tense you like.
    I want to know if ''even though' is correct or not and why.

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Thank you in advance.

    Jiang






    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    r.

    PS: If anyone has a clue about getting capitals to display when answering questions, I'd be glad to hear it.

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    #9

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Quote Originally Posted by jiang View Post

    Dear raymott,

    thank you so much for your patience and explanation. I think this is beyond me because I still don't quite understand your explanation. And i am trying to figure your explanation out.
    no.1
    yes, it's a partial condition. He might not lose his hearing even if he doesn't have the operation. The above only says:
    1. If not(operation) then maybe(deaf). This implies:
    2. If not(operation) then maybe not (deaf). From this, you might also infer: If(operation) then not(deaf), although that's not stated and it's not necessarily true.

    do you mean the sentence "unless he gets an operation, the boy may lose his hearing froever" actually means there might be two results whether he gets the operation or not.
    of course. You have 2 variables, which are not totally dependent. The total number of outcomes is 2 * 2 = 4. However, in real life, one of them is unlikely (his having the operation and losing his hearing - since that has not been mentioned). The other 3 have to be possible, given the "maybe".
    I. Having the op, not losing hearing - the preferred outcome
    ii. Not having the op and losing hearing - possible, because that's what the sentence says may happen.
    Iii. Not having the operation and not losing his hearing. This must logically be possible since he only may lose his hearing if he doesn't have the op.

    If the sentence was 100% conditional (if he has the operation, he won't lose his hearing. If he doesn't, he will), there are only 2 possible outcomes - 1) operation + hearing and 2) no operation and no hearing.

    if yes, he might be cured or become deaf. If not, he is also face with the two results?

    that's what the sentence says, as explained above. Since there is a "may" in the sentence, we are talking about probabilities/possibilities, not strict conditional outcomes.

    no.2
    even though he had the operation... (this is subjunctive mood)
    no, it's the simple past. He had the operation. Even though he had the operation, he may still lose his hearing.

    the present subjunctive is: Even were he to have the operation, he could still lose his hearing.
    i guess what you mean is there is a difference between 'even if' and 'even though'. The former refers to something that hasn't take place while the latter refers to something that has already taken place. If this is so then my teacher is wrong. He said ''even if ' and 'even though' bear the same meaning.

    "even though" and "even if" often mean different things. You can say:
    "even if he has the operation, he may lose his hearing". You can't say:
    "even though he has the operation ..."
    "even though he had the op" and "even if he had the op" mean two different things - mainly related to tense, and whether he's already had it.

    It's possible that your teacher was using an example in which the two terms led to the same meaning.


    no.3
    even though he will have had the operation... (i can't analyze the grammar here). that was a typo of barb's. It's meant to be the future perfect. "even though he will have had the operation, he may still lose his hearing."
    in 'even though he will have had the operation ' 'even though' doesn't refer to something that had taken place but a guess of the future. Is that right?
    no, the future perfect refers to a completed action sometime in the future.
    If he is planning to have the operation in january, you could say now "even though he will have had the operation (in january), he could still go deaf in february".
    (i'm not sure why barb wanted to introduce the future perfect. Perhaps i even made a wrong correction to her typo. Note that we've changed the original meaning of the sentence.


    no.4

    but i'm not really sure what you want to know. It's possible to make a lot of sentences with varying degrees of uncertainty in any tense you like.
    i want to know if ''even though' is correct or not and why.
    for the multi-choice question? The answer is a. "even though" does not fit into the space in such a way as to give a meaningful grammatical sentence.

    looking forward to hearing from you.
    thank you in advance.

    jiang
    r.

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    #10

    Re: succeed, even though, such way

    Hi - I made a type in that sentence with the "will have have" and to be totally honest, I can't remember what it was supposed to be.


    The operation is in the past. We are waiting to see how successful it was.
    Even though he had the operation, he still may lose his hearing (at some point in the future).

    The operation is scheduled for the future, but the doctor is not sure it will be successful. The operation itself is not a complete certainty.
    Even if he gets the operation, he still may lose his hearing.

    The operation is a certain thing in the future, but the doctor is not sure it will be be successful.
    Even though he will have the operation, he still may lose his hearing.


    If this doesn't answer the question, could you please restate your question, without using my quote, so I can think about it with a fresh perspective?

    Thanks.

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