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Thread: weep in shame

  1. #1
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    Default weep in shame

    Which ones are correct:
    1-He is weeping in shame that he lost.
    2-He is weeping that he lost.
    3-He is crying that he lost.
    4-He is laughing that he won.
    Last edited by navi tasan; 11-Dec-2004 at 00:45.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: weep in shame

    Quote Originally Posted by navi tasan
    Which ones are correct:
    1-He is weeping in shame that he lost.
    2-He is weeping that he lost.
    3-He is crying that he lost.
    4-He is laughing that he won.
    Sentence 1- is rather interesting. The relative clause 'that he lost' appears to be an object complement modifying the noun 'shame':

    1- He is weeping in shame that he lost.
    => the shame is that he lost.

    But appearances can be deceptive. The clause 'that he lost' expresses a reason, i.e., the reason is that he lost, so subordinating 'because' is best:

    1-He is weeping in shame because he lost.
    2-He is weeping because he lost.
    3-He is crying because he lost.
    4-He is laughing because he won. (Also, He is laughing at the fact that he won, wherein at the fact can be omitted: He is laughing that he won. I believe 'at the fact' works here because of the verb 'laugh').

    The difference between 'that' and 'because' as subordinators: 'that' can be omitted.

    He cried out (that) he lost. (Noun clause; Object of the verb)
    He cried because he lost. (Adverbial phrase; gives the reason)

    Here's a wonderful source on the differences between that and because:

    http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/072303.htm

  3. #3
    navi tasan is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: weep in shame

    Thanks Cas,
    In other words "He is weeping that he lost." is incorrect.
    But do people use it? It might be regional?

    This does not mean that your explanation isn't clear, Cas. It is. It is damn good, as a matter of fact. You are getting better and better at explaining fine grammatical points! Cheers!
    Last edited by navi tasan; 12-Dec-2004 at 13:44.

  4. #4
    AintFoolin Guest

    Default Re: weep in shame

    i can't say whether it is technically correct or not, but it certainly is used

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    Default Re: weep in shame

    Quote Originally Posted by navi tasan
    Thanks Cas,
    In other words "He is weeping that he lost." is incorrect.
    But do people use it? It might be regional?

    This does not mean that your explanation isn't clear, Cas. It is. It is damn good, as a matter of fact. You are getting better and better at explaining fine grammatical points! Cheers!
    Thank you for your kind words.

    I agree with AF on this. It's used, but it's not the Standard. Speakers tend to use 'that' as a synonym for 'because', and the reason for that, well, I speculate:

    A) Both function as conjunctions, but as a conjunction, 'that' lacks semantic content, whereas 'because' does not, so maybe structure plays a contributing role.

    B) It's possible that "He is weeping that he lost" comes from an elliptical construct:

    That he lost (is the reason) he is weeping.

    and when 'is the reason' is omitted, it forces the relative clause 'That he lost' to find a suitable antecedent elsewhere in the construct:

    He is weeping that he lost.

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