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  1. #21
    svartnik is offline Banned
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    He took off her clothes. Where did he take her clothes? Off??! --> It is a pv

    He took her hands off me. Where did he take his hands? He took it off me. --> prep verb
    While I was lying in my bed counting the sheep, I had a rude awakening. I realized what an idiot I am.
    The truth is, I cannot think straight in the just-before-bed period, which, in my case, extends back to the just-out-of-bed-in-the-morning period.

    The test on pv's in quotes above I carried out earlier is nonsense. It does not help at all to decide the lie of the land. However, that does not change my stance on the question.

    Pv's are a real minefield.

    Let us go back to sleep.
    Last edited by svartnik; 07-May-2009 at 22:53.

  2. #22
    jirikoo is offline Member
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    svartnik, i've just just used your own example with the plumber.

    You can fill in any other obligatorily separable phrasal verbs.


    Simple question - simple answer:
    Talk into - phrasal verb obligatorily separable

    I talked him into the action.

    him - DO
    the action - ????

  3. #23
    jirikoo is offline Member
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    While I was lying in my bed counting the sheep, I had a rude awakening. I realized what an idiot I am.
    The truth is, I cannot think straight in the just-before-bed period, which, in my case, extends back to the just-out-of-bed-in-the-morning period.

    The test on pv's in quotes above I carried out earlier is nonsense. It does not help at all to decide the lie of the land. However, that does not change my stance on the question.

    Pv's are a real minefield.

    Let us go back to sleep.

    The question Where did he take her clothes off is perfectly fine. Still a phrasal verbs...

  4. #24
    svartnik is offline Banned
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    If "talk into" is a pv, then who said that this is goes along with the Collins pv definition; that is, prep. verbs belong in pv category too.

    into = prep
    action = object of prep

  5. #25
    jirikoo is offline Member
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Before someone starts challenging the "talk into" not being a phrasal verb here is a proof.

    Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press


    Im after the principal identification of the word that goes right after the prepositional part of a phrasal verb unless it is a prepositional phrase.

    I talked him into the action. It seems like an object complement.

    Can anyone confirm or refute that?

  6. #26
    svartnik is offline Banned
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by jirikoo View Post
    Before someone starts challenging the "talk into" not being a phrasal verb here is a proof.

    Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press
    Read my previous comment again and hopefully your misunderstanding will disappear.
    I said "talk into" belong to that pv set of which prep verbs are also members (Collins pv def.)

    "talk into" is a prep verb, and prep verbs is a subset of pv's according to some grammarians.

    I hope you get me.

    However, let us take this view (CGEL):

    into is a preposition, right?
    A pv is a verb plus adverbial particle

    What is talk into?

  7. #27
    svartnik is offline Banned
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    I = S
    talked into = prep verb
    him -- receiver of the action ---> object of the verb "talk into"
    the action -- it is not an object complement,; "the action" does not hinge on"him"

    the action = object of the verb preposition; it gives further info about the verb so it modifies it

  8. #28
    jirikoo is offline Member
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    Read my previous comment again and hopefully your misunderstanding will disappear.
    I said "talk into" belong to that pv set of which prep verbs are also members (Collins pv def.)

    "talk into" is a prep verb, and prep verbs is a subset of pv's according to some grammarians.

    I hope you get me.

    However, let us take this view (CGEL):

    into is a preposition, right?
    A pv is a verb plus adverbial particle

    What is talk into?



    in my country we have such a saying: two lawyers have three different opinions

    you also get to take a look at a whole sentence structure and decide upon adverbial - if you do regard into as a preposition, in this context it is a prepositional phrase thus modifier (into an action), talk then will be a transitive verb with an implied object


    anyway, its time for me to have been in a bed


    talk into as phrasal verb is to persuade or convince someone to do sth.

  9. #29
    svartnik is offline Banned
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by jirikoo View Post
    if you do regard into as a preposition,
    What else can "into" be other than a preposition? As far as I know, nada.
    Thanks for the exchange of ideas.

  10. #30
    jirikoo is offline Member
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    Default Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    I = S
    talked into = prep verb
    him -- receiver of the action ---> object of the verb "talk into"
    the action -- it is not an object complement,; "the action" does not hinge on"him"

    the action = object of the verb preposition; it gives further info about the verb so it modifies it

    but keep in mind that objects are generally complements not modifiers.

    the action is an object/complement to into

    a modifier is the whole prepositional phrase into the action

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