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    #41

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    "this action," what is it in this sentence apart from an object of prep? What is its function? What does it do in the sentence?
    that is what im trying to figure out :)

    its definitely an object/complement to the preposition, but i dont know about the rest


    i think its a complement to the object "him"

    good night


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    #42

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by jirikoo View Post
    that is what im trying to figure out :)

    its definitely an object/complement to the preposition, but i dont know about the rest


    i think its a complement to the object "him"

    good night
    Let us consider a similar sentence! LEt us make some transformation!
    What does I talked him into the action mean?
    Something similar to this:
    I said something to him
    or
    I said him something.

    Now, let us juxtapose the corresponding parts of the two sentences:
    said = talked into
    him = him
    something = the action

    Is it not possible that "him" is the indirect object, "the action" is the direct object of "talk into"?
    Last edited by svartnik; 08-May-2009 at 01:51.

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    #43

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    What is talk into?
    I think there are 2 totally different "talked into" verbs, one prepositional, the other prep and phrasal:

    "When on the air, make sure you talk into the microphone."

    "I'm not sure how you talked me into going on air without makeup."


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    #44

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I think there are 2 totally different "talked into" verbs, one prepositional, the other prep and phrasal:

    "When on the air, make sure you talk into the microphone."

    "I'm not sure how you talked me into going on air without makeup."
    Helo Konun,

    1. Where do you talk into? The microphone.
    2. Who do you talk into the action?

    1. is a free combination
    2. is a prep verb

    The other criterion for distinguishing prep verbs from free combinations is the possibility of making the prepositional object the subject in the corresponding passive sentence.

    The microphone was talked into
    The action was talked into him. ?

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    #45

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    The microphone was talked into
    The action was talked into him.
    ..


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    #46

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Yes, the second criterion does not work with ditransitive prep verbs like "talk into".
    Besides, with "I talked him into the action", the direct object becomes the subject in the corresponding passive sentence, and not the prep object.
    He was talked into the action. The prep is not stranded.

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    #47

    Re: question for linguists, please

    This is an interesting discussion, which I am just catching up on as I have only recently joined. I am sorry if I have missed some posts.

    I agree with what has been said about "him" being the direct object and the action being a prepositional complement (or "oblique" - to keep talk about grammatical relations like direct object separate from talk about phrase structure).

    I think the following post was particularly interesting:

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    yes, "into the action" modifies the verb "talk" -- > function: adverb phrase; lexical category: prep phrase

    There is something that is still not very clear to me:

    "talk into" is a "semantic unit"
    into the action looks like a prep phrase that is branched off the main road, if you catch my drift

    I cannot really reconcile these ideas.
    I agree with this, and think that phrase structure often forces a choice between two sense groupings, when we really want to say "both".

    At the level of phrase structure, I would suggest that both the direct object (NP) and the oblique (PP) are complements of the verb "talk" (rather than the PP being a modifier as has been suggested). This structure would be similar to "put the flowers on the table", or perhaps even more closely "drank himself to death".

    At the same time I agree with Svartnik that "talk" and "into" somehow form a unit:

    "Drinking beer on a warm evening is something that I am very easy to talk into."

    "John was talked into, but later dissuaded from, marrying Mary."

    There are various technical ways one can capture this "amalgamation", but they go beyond classical phrase structure.


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    #48

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Quote Originally Posted by orangutan View Post
    but they go beyond classical phrase structure.
    And also beyond my comprehension. Thanks for your input, Orangutan.
    English is my hobby and I have been learning the language by self-study, on and off. Tough at times, I must confess. Not exactly moonlight and roses.

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    #49

    Re: question for linguists, please

    Then I must say you have done a very impressive job of it.

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