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  1. #21
    orangutan is offline Member
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    Let me quote some salient parts for lazy readers:
    I am travelling, and don't have a lot of time to deal with your rude and aggressive posts.

  2. #22
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    Let me quote some salient parts for lazy readers:

    This extreme mandate to “master” English is the exact academic pressure that Krashen identifies as inhibiting 2nd language acquisition.[1]

    [1] Krashen, Stephen (1981) Second Language Acquisition and 2nd Language Learning, Prentice Hall
    Krashen has been widely discredited in the world of Second Language Acquisition research - mainly because his methods don't work.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    First, David calls Indian English "Hinglish."
    Second, his opinion seems to be based upon a two week visit to India a couple of years ago.
    Third, I never cite anoynomous forums as authority for anything.
    Fourth, only 1/3rd of Indians speak Hinglish according to David. That leaves 900 million others speaking something else.
    Fifth, an interesting spin by a British linguist.
    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/as...-hungry-4.html

    The situations of China and India, as regards the English language, are completely different. The English language has been present in India since the 16th century, India was part of the British Empire for 250 years, during which time its government and administration was carried on in English. Today, English is the second official language, all government documents are written in English and Hindi, the professions such as law and medicine are largely carried out in English and there are over 12 million Indians who speak English as their first language (compared with 15 million Australians and 4 million New Zealanders). In addition there are approximately 90 million people who speak English fluently as a second language, plus unknown millions who use some English daily. There are also approximately 17 million English speakers in Pakistan which, as I'm sure you know, was part of India until 1947. Indian English is a recognised dialect of English.

  4. #24
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    anupumh is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    First, David calls Indian English "Hinglish."
    Second, his opinion seems to be based upon a two week visit to India a couple of years ago.
    Third, I never cite anoynomous forums as authority for anything.
    Fourth, only 1/3rd of Indians speak Hinglish according to David. That leaves 900 million others speaking something else.
    Fifth, an interesting spin by a British linguist.
    Hinglish and Indian English are seperate entities.

    Hinglish: a mixture of Hindi and english, while speaking in hindi usage of English words.

    Indian English: proper english dilect with sentence structure/grammar and pronunciation influenced by the first language (hindi) due to direct translations, which we refer as Indianisms, ex usage of progressive verbs (ing form), prepone, etc

    I dont need to resource to state this, as I am an Indian and have first hand knowledge on what is spoken and what is not...

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    Krashen has been widely discredited in the world of Second Language Acquisition research - mainly because his methods don't work.
    If your claim is true there should be multiple juried journal articles trashing Krashen.

    Please direct us to just one.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by orangutan View Post
    I was offering an opinion on the summary and opinions in your post. I don't feel like reading the whole article, thanks.
    What I am trying to understand is why you feel compelled to express an opinion without first becoming properly informed on the matter.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by orangutan View Post
    I am travelling, and don't have a lot of time to deal with your rude and aggressive posts.
    That is not an acceptable excuse. Think about it. Why do you feel compelled to monitor and respond while travelling> Sounds like an addiction.

  8. #28
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    If your claim is true there should be multiple juried journal articles trashing Krashen.

    Please direct us to just one.
    Certainly, I will find some articles for you.
    But you must understand that academics who submit to scholarly journals do not "trash" each other. They politely point out problems in methodology, lack of empirical evidence for theories, discrepancies etc.
    So, I will post a few articles and journals, but don't expect it to read like the Mirror or the National Enquirer.

  9. #29
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    SWAIN. M and S LAPKIN (1995) “Problems in Output and the Cognitive Processes They Generate: A Step Towards Second Language Learning” Applied Linguistics, Vol 16, No 3.
    “ In a recent article on second language speech production research, Crookes
    (1991 117) states that ' the role of output (i e production or use) in the
    development of SL [second language] proficiency has largely been ignored or
    denied (e g Krashen 1989)' The purposes of this paper are to argue that there
    are roles for output in second language learning, and to present some relevant
    data regarding one of those roles ”


    From Ellis, Rod (2008) The Study of Second Language Acquisition, 2nd ed. Oxford, OUP.
    There have been a number of critiques of the Input Hypothesis (Gregg, 1984, Faerch and Kaspar 1986; Sharwood Smith 1986; McLaughlin 1987; White 1987; Gass 1988; Ellis, 1990, 1991). Perhaps the major problem is that Krashen paid little attention to what comprehensibility entails” (Ellis: 251).


    White, L (1987) "Against Comprehensible Input: the input hypothesis and the development of second language competence. Applied Linguistics 8:95-110.

    Gass, M (1988) "Integrating research areas: a framework for second language studies" Applied Linguistics 9: 198-217

    Gregg, K. (1984) "Krahen's Monitor and Occam's Razor" Applied Linguistics 5 79-100.



    Swain (1985, 1995) advanced the Comprehensible Output Hypothesis as a complement to Krashen’s Input Hypothesis. She argues that immersion programs in Canada had demonstrated that comprehensible input alone was insufficient to ensure that learners achieved high levels of grammatical and sociolinguistic competence. (Ellis 260)
    Swain, M. (1985) Communicative Competence: some roles of comprehensible input and output in its development” in S. Gass and C. Madden (eds) Input in Second Language Acquisition, Rowland Mass: Newbury House.

    I tried to stick to journals, but some of the better quotes are from textbooks. Fortunately, a good enough discussion of the deficiencies of Krashen's Comprehensible Input Hypothesis has taken place in the Applied Linguistics, so you could do some further browsing there.
    And I will nominate that as the "one journal" you asked for.
    Oh, now that I check, you only asked for one journal article! Consider the rest a bonus.


  10. #30
    orangutan is offline Member
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    Default Re: Challenge against Standard English

    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    That is not an acceptable excuse. Think about it. Why do you feel compelled to monitor and respond while travelling> Sounds like an addiction.
    I don't need excuses, and I don't need your permission to speak.

    My response to your original (provocatively worded) post was perfectly reasonable, and represents the maximum effort I am prepared to put in for your implausible theories.

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