say/says, play/plays

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ndexter

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Anything wrong in these sentences?

1. I suggested that my friend play(?) with us.
2. To hear my friend say(?) that,(?) was unusual.

What form of "play" and "say" I am using here?

Thank you
 

TheParser

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Anything wrong in these sentences?

1. I suggested that my friend play(?) with us.
2. To hear my friend say(?) that,(?) was unusual.

What form of "play" and "say" I am using here?

Thank you

********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello.

(1) I think that the answers may be:

(a) I suggested that my friend play (subjunctive).

(i) The teacher suggests that Mona study more.

(b) To hear my friend say that was unusual. The full sentence

is To hear my friend to say [infinitive] that was unusual.

(i) English speakers have decided that after certain verbs such as

hear, they drop the to.

THANK YOU
 

euncu

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To hear my friend to say [infinitive] that was unusual.

Considering that that was unusual, why does the sentence above not start with "Having heard..." ?

Thanks for your reply in advance.
 

TheParser

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Considering that that was unusual, why does the sentence above not start with "Having heard..." ?

Thanks for your reply in advance.

*********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello.

To the best of my knowledge, I think that people would say:

To hear my friend [to] say that was unusual.

Hearing my friend [to] say that was unusual.

I personally am not comfortable with:

Having heard my friend [to] say that was unusual.

I do not know grammar well enough to explain why.

Maybe it is "good" English.

I do not want to give out any misleading ideas, so let's

see what the language professionals say.

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TheParser

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Considering that that was unusual, why does the sentence above not start with "Having heard..." ?

Thanks for your reply in advance.

********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello, Enucu.

(1) I am disappointed that a language professional has not yet

answered your excellent question.

(2) I have thought about it, and I may ( a big may) have an answer why

Having heard might not be appropriate for that sentence.

(3) To hear (an infinitive) and Hearing (a gerund) are used as nouns

in that sentence and serve as the subject.

For example:

To know him (subject) + is (linking verb) + to love him (complement).

Eating ice cream (subject) + is + more fun than eating vegetables.

(4) But I think (only my opinion) Having heard is the present perfect participle of

the verb hear, and I believe that participles act as adjectives -- not

nouns. Therefore, it cannot be the subject of the original poster's

sentence. As I understand it, a participle has to be attached to some

(pro)noun.

Thus, maybe (maybe?!!!) this might work:

Having heard him [to] say that, I decided not to have any more

business dealings with him.

Maybe that is the same as:

After I had heard him [to] say that, I decided ....

THANK YOU
 

BobK

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Incidentally - re earlier discussion: in my experience learning languages most of which have an implicit 'to...' in their infinitive, I just said 'infinitive' for, e.g., 'to talk'. Subsequently - since my CELTA - I use the terms 'to-infinitive' and 'bare infinitive', as do most other people in the ELT world.

b
 

TheParser

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:up: - all except the "[to]" in the last two examples, which may have been acceptable once but isn't now.

********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello, Mr. K.

(1) I put to in brackets because I wanted to show it was part of a

deleted infinitive after such verbs as hear.

(2) I should have emphasized to learners -- as you did -- that it is

definitely not used nowadays.

(3) Sorry if I misled anyone.

THANK YOU
 

euncu

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(3) To hear (an infinitive) and Hearing (a gerund) are used as nouns

in that sentence and serve as the subject.

Now it made sense.
Thank you very much for your elaborate reply.
 

ndexter

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********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello.

(1) I think that the answers may be:

(a) I suggested that my friend play (subjunctive).

(i) The teacher suggests that Mona study more.

(b) To hear my friend say that was unusual. The full sentence

is To hear my friend to say [infinitive] that was unusual.

(i) English speakers have decided that after certain verbs such as

hear, they drop the to.

THANK YOU

Thank you, TheParser, for all your answers.

When you said "subjunctive", did you mean missing "would"?

I suggested that my friend (would) play.
The teacher suggests that Mona (will, would) study more.

Thank you.
 

TheParser

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Thank you, TheParser, for all your answers.

When you said "subjunctive", did you mean missing "would"?

I suggested that my friend (would) play.
The teacher suggests that Mona (will, would) study more.

Thank you.

********** NOT a teacher **********

Hello, Ndexter.

(1) Thank you for your kind note.

(2) I am far (VERY far) from being an expert on the subjunctive,

but I think that your sentences are not missing a would.

(3) The subjunctive is very common in some languages, but it is

rather formal in American English. (I hear that our British friends

do not use it so often but that some are starting to because of

American influence.)

(4) She plays. You learned that the third person takes s. Grammar books

call this the INDICATIVE. It is something real. She plays every day.

He is always on time. That is something real, too.

(5) The SUBJUNCTIVE is only an idea. A wish. A demand. But it is not

real. Not yet.

I suggest that she play. I use the subjunctive (in other words, the

form without s) because it is only my suggestion. Maybe she will play

or maybe she will not. (Some native speakers do say: I suggest that she

plays. But that sounds unpleasant to most Americans.)


I demand that he be on time. I used the subjunctive of to be because

it is only my demand. Who knows? Maybe he will say, "I do not care

what you say. I am not coming on time."

(5) If you have more questions about the subjunctive, you can

type "subjunctive" in the search box, or ask any question here.

The teachers at this website are always eager to help you with

any question.

THANK YOU

P.S. Would you like to take a little quiz? Please put the INDICATIVE or

SUBJUNCTIVE form in the space. (All present tense)

1. (eat) Tom ___ an apple every day.

2. (eat) Dr. Smith recommends that Tom ___ an apple every day.

3. (do) The teacher insists that my daughter ___ her homework with

more care.

(4) (do) I am very proud of my daughter because she always ___

her homework with great care.

(5) (be) I suggest that Martha ___ here at 8 o'clock tomorrow.

(6) (have) It is important that your son ___ good marks if he

wishes to enter the university.

*****

Answers: (1) eats, (2) eat, (3) do, (4) does, (5) be, and (6) have.

Congratulations!!! I am sure that you did perfectly on the quiz. :)
 
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