[Grammar] He told me that it is/was going to rain this weekend

[teddy111]

Hi all,

I have been struggling with sequence of tenses.

Just wonder if there are any exceptions to the rule.

If somebody just told me something that is still true or the thing that hasn't happened yet
Do i still need to follow the rule?

Ex: He told me that it is / was going to rain this weekend.
He said he doesn't/ didn't like her anymore.

I just realized that we are / were not allowed to eat here.
I just realized that they are / were twins.
I didn't notice that it is / was midnight already.

When the subordinate tells something that's general truth we can choose present tense
How if its something that's not general truth but something that's still true?


Many thanks in advance

 

[jutfrank]

Your post is not very clear but if I understand you correctly, the answer is yes, you can use a present tense (in fact it's better) if the thing is still true (ie. if nothing has changed) when you're reporting. Try understanding your example like this:

'He told me that it is going to rain this weekend.'

[He made a prediction and it remains as a prediction, so stay with the present tense because nothing has changed]



'He told me that it was going to rain this weekend.'

[He made a prediction but the prediction has been confirmed (positively or negatively - for example, you can see that it's raining or there's clear evidence that it's definitely not going to rain) and so is no longer a prediction, so change the tense to past to suggest that the prediction is now in the past]

There's no need to 'backshift' the tense when reporting unless there's a reason to do so. Does that make sense?

 

[5jj]

Welcome to the forum, teddy.

Please remember to use a capital letter for the first letter of a sentence and for the personal pronoun 'I'. Remember, too, to use an appropriate punctuation mark at the end of a sentence.

 

[5jj]

There's no need to 'backshift' the tense when reporting unless there's a reason to do so.

That's true, but it is almost always possible to backshift so, as far as learners are concerned, backshifting is always the safe option.

If the situation referred to in the reported speech is no longer valid, then backshifting is obligatory.

 

[teddy111]

Thank you for your answers and I have already corrected the mistakes that I made.

I'm sorry but I don't really understand it. I thought backshifting was necessary.
So in reported speech we can choose present tense if that makes sense and use past tense might be ambiguous but a rather safe way. Is it correct?

What about the other examples?

I just realized that we are not allowed to eat here.
I just realized that they are twins.
I didn't notice that it is midnight already.

Are these also correct even though they are not reported speech?

 

[Barb_D]

I just realized that we are not allowed to eat here. - Suitable if you are eating right now, OR if you have already eaten but may have had plans to eat here in the future. Using "were" would be odd if you have already eaten and you never plan to eat here again. I just realized that they are twins. - Okay either way - very much okay if they are visible right now.
I didn't notice that it is midnight already. If it's midnight NOW, use "is." If it's no longer midnight, then don't use this one. (It's no longer true.)

Are these also correct even though they are not reported speech?

.

 

[teddy111]

Thank you very much for you help.

So are there any rules that I can follow?
Like if the verbs in the main clauses ( just realized, didn't notice) happen not long ago, we don't need to follow the tense agreement.

Is it correct?

Do all these five sentences correct when the verb tense in subordinate clause is in either past tense or present tense, just different meanings and time frames?

 

[Barb_D]

Thank you very much for you help.

So are there any rules that I can follow?
Like if the verbs in the main clauses ( just realized, didn't notice) happen not long ago, we don't need to follow the tense agreement. You always need to follow the tense agreement. But you choose the tense based on either when it happened OR your attitude/knowledge about it right now. Sometimes the present tense is the right tense. Sometimes it's not. With reported speech, it's always safe to backshift, but it is not always necessary to backshift.

Is it correct?

[STRIKE]Do [/STRIKE]Are all five of these [STRIKE]five [/STRIKE]sentences correct when the verb tense in subordinate clause is in either past tense or present tense, just different meanings and time frames?

I'm afraid I didn't understand your last question.

 

[5jj]

Here's what normally happens.

A. If the reporting verb is in a present tense (simple, progressive or perfct), then the original tenses are retained:

"I am happy"
He says/is saying/has said that he is happy.

B. If the reporting verb is in a past tense (simple, progressive or perfect), then backshifting is (almost) always acceptable.

He said/was saying/had said that he was happy.

C. If the reporting verb is in a past tense and the situation is still true at the moment of speaking, then backshifting is optional.

"Paris is the capital of France"
He said that Paris is(/was) the capital of France. Backshifting ppssible but non-backshifting more likely, because Paris is still the capital of France.

"Berlin is the capital of France".
He said that Berlin was(/is) the capital of France. Non back-shifting possible, because the original speaker believes Berlin to be the capital of France, but backshifting more likely, beause the reporter knows that it is not.

He said that he was/is happy. The more distant in time the reporting is from the original speaking, the more likely the reporter is to backshift, because s/he is increasingly unsure wther the original speaker is still happy. Compare:

When I saw him yesterday, he said that he was happy to see me.
When I saw him yesterday, he said that he is happy in his new job.

D: Apparent problem:

1. I have just realized that we are not allowed to eat here.
2. I just realized that we are not allowed to eat here.

#1 (normal BrE) is not a problem. Speakers of BrE normally use a present perfect form with 'just' for an action occuring in the very recent past, so there is no backshifting.
Speakers of AmE frequently use a past-tense form with 'just'. However, it still indicates a very recent past, as in BrE, so recent that what is reported is still valid. Non back-shifting is the norm here. Despite the past tense of the reporting verb, backshifting is not natural. Compare:

I thought we were allowed to eat here,

where the speaker (the reporter of his/her own thought) now knows, or suspects that they cannot eat there.

 

[teddy111]

I'm afraid I didn't understand your last question.

Sorry for the confusing question.

But yes, that answer is what I was looking for.
Backshifting is the safest way.

Thank you very much for your kind help.

 

[teddy111]

D: Apparent problem:

1. I have just realized that we are not allowed to eat here.
2. I just realized that we are not allowed to eat here.

#1 (normal BrE) is not a problem. Sof BrE normally use a present perfect form with 'just' for an action occuring in the very recent past, so there is no backshifting.
Speakers of AmE frequently use a past-tense form with 'just'. However, it still indicates a very recent past, as in BrE, so recent that what is reported is still valid. Non back-shifting is the norm here. Despite the past tense of the reporting verb, backshifting is not natural. Compare:

I thought we were allowed to eat here,

where the speaker (the reporter of his/her own thought) now knows, or suspects that they cannot eat there.

Thank you 5jj

I can understand the first three explanations.
But for D, I don't really understand it.

I think the sentence is not a reported speech ( please correct me if I'm wrong)
But does it also apply to the rule that at the moment of speaking the situation is true, backshift is optional?

And does it mean that in case #2 it is actually wrong to use "we were not allowed to eat here"?

 

[5jj]

.
But for D, I don't really understand it.

I think the sentence is not a reported speech ( please correct me if I'm wrong)

We follow the same 'rules' for reported thought, realisation, knowledge, observations, etc.

And does it mean that in case #2 it is actually wrong to use "we were not allowed to eat here"?

As I said, " Despite the past tense of the reporting verb, backshifting is not natural".

 

[teddy111]

We follow the same 'rules' for reported thought, realisation, knowledge, observations, etc. As I said, " Despite the past tense of the reporting verb, backshifting is not natural".

Sorry but I don't really know what reported thought is.

Are these sentences correct?

I just found out how stupid my questions are.
I didn't know my questions were stupid.
I thought my questions were really illogical. ( They are still very illogical)

Are " I thought" and " I didn't" kinds of reported thought?

 

[5jj]

Sorry but I don't really know what reported thought is.

I thought you could guess.
I think you haven't really thought about that.
I hoped we had solved all the problems.

Are these sentences correct?

I just found out how stupid my questions are.
I didn't know my questions were stupid.

Yes

I thought my questions were really illogical. ( They are still very illogical)

If you want to suggest that they are still illogical, then you are more likely to say "I think my questions are illogical".

Are " I thought" and " I didn't" kinds of reported thought?

What follows I thought (that) is a reported thought. I didn't doesn't introduce anything. I didn't think/know introduce reported thought/knowledge.

 

[teddy111]

Thank you very much 5jj for your help

Sorry that it took you a long time to explain that to me.
Many thanks to you.

 

[Barb_D]

5jj's post that shows the different situations is a very good post indeed.

I had never thought about the verb used to report (I think/I thought; he is saying/he said) and its influence on the main verb, and the A, B, C, etc. options are very clear and easy to follow. I wish we could flag that post as one to link to for future questions about reported speech/reported thought and back shifting.

 

[5jj]

 

[teddy111]

Sorry again.


What if it's a question or a negative sentence ?

1. Did the teacher say we can leave ? (We are ready to leave)
2. I didn't say you can use my car when I'm away. ( You've used it and are planning to use it again)

These sentences I'm not sure whether the statements are true or not , is it possible not to shiftback here ?

 

[5jj]

There is no difference in tense usage in affirmative, negative or interrogative sentences.

#1 is fine; 'could' is possible.

In #2, you say that the person addressed has used the car, so 'could' is the natural choice.

Before you ask another follow-up question, remember that we often have a pretty free choice. We don't consciously think about the form of the verb before we produce an utterance. Some slight stirring in our subconscious mind a nanosecond before we say something may change a form that we might otherwise have used.

We have given you general suggestions that almost always work, but I don't think there is much point intrying to analyse precisely why one tense rather than another has been used in every possibility we can come up with. Only the person who uttttered the actual words knows the full context in which s/he was uttering them and, as I have said, almost certainly was not thinking about the tenses.