to the need of protecting these sites.

[keannu]

Is this "of " apposition as in "the city of seoul" or obejctive as in "The contruction of the dam"? They say it's apposition, but I think objective is closer to its meaning.

ex) What the list aims to do is draw the world's attention to the need of protecting these sites. (the list is about world heritage site)

 

[keannu]

Isn't it objective?

 

[keannu]

Maybe my grammar term is too difficult to understand.

 

[Rover_KE]

I don't understand it.:-?

 

[keannu]

I don't understand it.:-?

So far, in Korea we have learned there's 4 usages of "of"
1. subjetive usage : "The arrival of spring" - means "spring arrives" as "of" connects spring to arrival as the subject for arrival
2. objective usage : "the construction of the dam" - means "construct the dam" as "of" connects dam to construction as the object of the word "construction"
3. equal(apposition) usage : "The city of Seoul" or "his effort of saving children" - these "of" make the former word equal to the latter word, so it's called apposition or equal usage
4. possesive usage - "the pens and pencils of him"- this "of" makes the former word as the belongings of the latter word

According to the 4 usages we learned, I think the "of" in "the need of protecting these sites" means objective usage as it can mean "the world's attention to need protecting these sites", but some one in Korea is arguing that it's an equal(apposition) usage like "the need that they have to protect these sites". That's why I'm confused.
Are these four usages all Korean-made ones?

 

[Whoknows]

Re:to the need of protecting these sites

As a native speaker, I would not be using the word 'of'. I would say 'the need 'FOR' protectiing... '.

As a digression - we would say 'his pens and pencils', not 'the pencils of him', although that is not necessarily wrong.

Does this help?

 

[keannu]

Re: to the need of protecting these sites

As a native speaker, I would not be using the word 'of'. I would say 'the need 'FOR' protectiing... '.

As a digression - we would say 'his pens and pencils', not 'the pencils of him', although that is not necessarily wrong.

Does this help?

Don't you think it was written by a native speaker? Do native speakers never say in that way? Anyway, if "of" is possible in this sentence, which usage do you think it is?

 

[5jj]

keannu: Are these four usages all Korean-made ones?
5jj: I don't know about that, but I have not encountered them. There's nothing wrong with them, but I have managed all my life without them.

Whoknows: As a native speaker, I would not be using the word 'of'. I would say 'the need 'FOR' protecting... '.
keannu: Don't you think it was written by a native speaker? Do native speakers never say in that way?
5jj: I wouldn't say 'never', but I wouldn't say'of'. I'd probably say, "the need to protect".
keannu: Anyway, if "of" is possible in this sentence, which usage do you think it is?
5jj. I suppose it's the apposition one.

 

[keannu]

keannu: Are these four usages all Korean-made ones?
5jj: I don't know about that, but I have not encountered them. There's nothing wrong with them, but I have managed all my life without them.

Whoknows: As a native speaker, I would not be using the word 'of'. I would say 'the need 'FOR' protecting... '.
keannu: Don't you think it was written by a native speaker? Do native speakers never say in that way?
5jj: I wouldn't say 'never', but I wouldn't say'of'. I'd probably say, "the need to protect".
keannu: Anyway, if "of" is possible in this sentence, which usage do you think it is?
5jj. I suppose it's the apposition one.

I'm so shocked you have manged without them, which I roughly guessed.
In Korea, in so many questions of tests, these usages are dealt with, and become quite important issues, and I thought it must come from native speakers' grammar.

But now I guess it's what Koreans made. Korean also has the same word for "of", but as you haven't cared about it for your lifetime, I can also mange without caring about Korean "of", if I focus on and analyze Korean "of", they will say "I'm crazy", but Korean grammarians may have created these usages for proper interpretations of writings.

 

[~Mav~]

*** NOT A TEACHER ***

4. possessive usage - "the pens and pencils of him"

Shouldn't it read, (some) "pens and pencils of his"? :roll: (I replaced the definite article "the" with "some" in order to justify the use of this structure, instead of "his pens and pencils".)
Eg., "He gave me some pens and pencils of his, and he also gave me his exercise book."

 

[5jj]

"He gave me some pens and pencils of his, and he also gave me his exercise book."

That's fine.

@keannu: It sometimes happens that teachers of English to speakers of a particular language will find a 'rule' that native speakers don't think about that is useful for their learners.

An example: Many native-speaking teachers of English do not consider the subjunctive to be relevant in modern English, and explain such forms as "if I were you" as idiomatic fixed expressions. However, if the learners use a subjunctive mood naturally in their own language, then it may be helpful for teachers to deal with the subjunctive in English.

 

[Whoknows]

Sorry. I just assumed you were not a native speaker when you did not know these fine points automatically. Lots of words take different prepositions for different meanings and one just has to learn them. I got these examples from the dictionary. If you look at the last example I suppose you could say to have the need of protecting these sites, but in this case for is much better.

As for trying to decide about apposition and objective etc., that is all well and good for exercises in the learning of a language. I think what 5jj was saying that In practical use one does not parse sentences in every day use.
Apposition is an explanatory equivalent placed next to a word - usually a noun phrase. i.e.
Jim, my son, is ......
Objective is object of a verb or preposition. Need is a noun in your example.

Exs. Crops in need of water
No need for you to go.
A need for affection
The needs of women
A need for protection
A need to protect
To have a need of something. I need a coat.

Hope this helps.

 

[Whoknows]

5 jj

Just curious. When did the subjunctive become obsolete in English? - Obviously when I
was not looking. -. Is that true for all countries or just BE?

It is amazing how fast languages change.

 

[5jj]

Just curious. When did the subjunctive become obsolete in English?

I did not say that it had become obsolete. I said, "Many native-speaking teachers of English do not consider the subjunctive to be relevant in modern English."

 

[Tdol]

5 jj

Just curious. When did the subjunctive become obsolete in English? - Obviously when I
was not looking. -. Is that true for all countries or just BE?

It is amazing how fast languages change.

The present subjunctive is not used much in BrE- in fact, outside formal language, it's probably at the critically endangered level, maybe even extinct as it is usually found only in a few fossilised phrases. If I were is alive and well, though many use was. Some exams used to test this and mark if I was wrong, but most no longer do this.

 

[Whoknows]

Thanks, Tdol.