Question on the verbs 'say' and 'tell'

Hi teachers,
I was told that the rule for the verbs 'say' and 'tell' is as follows:
a) You say something.
b) You tell someone something.
My question is, if that is the rule, how come in the sentence below we have 'said' + 'to Adam'?
‘Where is he? What’s he doing?’ Felix said to Adam.

Thanks in advance.

You shouldn't think that this rule gives complete information on the use of "say" and "tell" in English.

"Say" means pretty much the same as "utter", only you can utter any kind of sound, but you usually say words. When you ask someone a question, you are saying something. When you tell somebody about your day, you are also saying something. We often say things to somebody. But sometimes the things we say don't have any particular addressee. When I bang my head against a piece of furniture and say "ouch" or "damn", I'm not saying it to anyone.

When you tell someone something, it is usually a piece of information. You can tell me your age, a lie or what happened to your sister a week ago. When you ask me a question, you're not telling me anything (but you're probably expecting me to tell you something).

learning54 said:

Hi teachers,
I was told that the rule for the verbs 'say' and 'tell' is as follows:
a) You say something.
b) You tell someone something.
My question is, if that is the rule, how come in the sentence below we have 'said' + 'to Adam'?
‘Where is he? What’s he doing?’ Felix said to Adam.

Thanks in advance.

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I think you may be confusing it with the rule of:

You say something to someone.
You tell someone something ("to" is not used here).

Many learners forget this and try to use "He told to me..." etc, it's a very common error.

Hi birdeen's call,
Thank you for your reply and help.

Learning

You say something to someone.
You tell someone something ("to" is not used here).

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Hi,
I used to say it, but then an American person told me this, 'With 'say' it is not used 'to someone' after it. If we want to say to whom it was said, we use the verb 'tell.'

learning54 said:

Hi,
I used to say it, but then an American person told me this, 'With 'say' it is not used 'to someone' after it. If we want to say to whom it was said, we use the verb 'tell.'

Click to expand...

I really don't understand what that person was trying to explain.

"That tree is green", John said to Susan.
"That tree is green", John told Susan.

David said to me yesterday that he wants to live in America.
David told me yesterday that he wants to live in America.

My personal choice would be "told/tell" in both of those examples but there is no reason why you can't say "he said to her" etc.

emsr2d2 said:

I think you may be confusing it with the rule of:

You say something to someone.
You tell someone something ("to" is not used here).

Many learners forget this and try to use "He told to me..." etc, it's a very common error.

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I agree that

He told to me the truth.

is incorrect (in Present-day English). However, I believe

He told the truth to me.

is fine, though less common.

I really don't understand what that person was trying to explain.

"That tree is green", John said to Susan.
"That tree is green", John told Susan.

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Hi,
Thank you for your reply. So, both verbs can take two objects, can't they?

This is what he told me:

In most ordinary usage the verb ‘say’ changes to ‘tell’ if you mention the person who heard the message.

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If we need to mention the listener, ‘tell + someone’ is generally preferable and better than ‘say + to someone’.

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Say "to someone"
So this is perfectly right:

• He said to me that he was tired.
• Tara said to Ram that he had done very well.
• Anthony said to her, "I hope you come soon."
• "I'd like to sleep," she said to him quietly.
  
  Learning

learning54 said:

Hi,
Thank you for your reply. So, both verbs can take two objects, can't they?



Say "to someone"
So this is perfectly right:

• He said to me that he was tired.
• Tara said to Ram that he had done very well.
• Anthony said to her, "I hope you come soon."
• "I'd like to sleep," she said to him quietly.
  
  Learning

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All of them are fine. You could also use "told" instead of "said to me/her/him".

I'm afraid that Learning might be under the impression that "say to" and "tell" are interchangable when they're quoting what someone said to someone else. In case that's the case I would like to make my point clearer. As far as I know,

‘Where is he? What’s he doing?’ Felix told Adam.

is not correct English.

birdeen's call said:

I'm afraid that Learning might be under the impression that "say to" and "tell" are interchangable when they're quoting what someone said to someone else. In case that's the case I would like to make my point clearer. As far as I know,

‘Where is he? What’s he doing?’ Felix told Adam.

is not correct English.

Click to expand...

You're right that "to say" and "to tell" wouldn't be interchangeable in that example but that's mainly because neither verb is appropriate in that example. Here, we would use "Felix asked Adam".

emsr2d2 said:

You're right that "to say" and "to tell" wouldn't be interchangeable in that example but that's mainly because neither verb is appropriate in that example. Here, we would use "Felix asked Adam".

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I agree that "asked" is definitely more likely here than "said to". But the verb "say" is sometimes used in reported speech with questions. There is something unnatural about

‘Where is he? What’s he doing?’ Felix said to Adam.

but I'm not sure it can be called incorrect. I guess its unnaturalness may stem from the word order or from the "to Adam" at the end.

I've been browsing COCA to find good examples, but it's difficult because many word orders are possible. Here's one sentence I've found:

Dakota Fanning grinned and said "What are you going to do?"

This sounds natural to me. Is it fine with you too? What if we added "to him" after "said"? I'm not so sure then. But even if it's unnatural, it does make sense in my opinion. With "told him" instead of "said to him", it does not.

birdeen's call said:

I agree that "asked" is definitely more likely here than "said to". But the verb "say" is sometimes used in reported speech with questions. There is something unnatural about

‘Where is he? What’s he doing?’ Felix said to Adam.
I agree that that is unnatural as I said, but it's not as unnatural as "Felix told Adam" thus still showing that "to say" and "to tell" are not always interchangeable.

but I'm not sure it can be called incorrect. I guess its unnaturalness may stem from the word order or from the "to Adam" at the end.

I've been browsing COCA to find good examples, but it's difficult because many word orders are possible. Here's one sentence I've found:

Dakota Fanning grinned and said "What are you going to do?"

This sounds natural to me. Is it fine with you too? Yes, it is.

What if we added "to him" after "said"? I'm not so sure then. Yes, that's OK as well if it's important to state that she directed the question to a particular person. However, "said" on its own sounds OK but if I were thinking of adding "to him" I would probably change it to "asked him".

But even if it's unnatural, it does make sense in my opinion. With "told him" instead of "said to him", it does not. Again, I agree. It's a question so, in my opinion, "to ask" is the best verb to use, "to say to" is the next best and "to tell" does not work at all.

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See above.

Thank you, that's pretty much what I thought too.

As a general rule, this is what I told my Spanish students:

To ask = to direct a question to someone
To say [to someone] = to speak some words out loud
To tell = to impart information to someone or to direct them to do something

learning54 said:

Hi teachers,
Thank you very much for your help.
Let's see if I understand you correctly with your explanations and mine.

a) Say is immendiately followed by a 'that' clause, even though many occur without 'that'.
b) Tell is immediately followed by a pronoun or noun object and then by a 'that' clause.

Just to clarify:
a) "Did you knock?" the old lady asked / said. :tick:
b) The old lady asked (him) if he had knocked. :tick:
c) The old lady told him if he had knocked. (NEVER) :tick: but see my comments below.

The first two are correct. If it is not a direct quote as in the last two, we can never say/told followed by what should obviously be a question.
The reason we can say: The old lady said,"Did you knock?" is because she did speak/say those words. :tick:
But if we are paraphrasing the quote sentence we must use the correct ask/told form.
The old lady asked him if he had knocked. :tick:
The old lady told him to bring some milk. :tick:

I guess (to him) is optional in the following sentences. Right? Then, all of them are correct, aren't they?
The old lady said that she was sorry (to him). :tick: without "to him". That word order simply sounds unnatural. If anything is going to follow "said that she was sorry", I would expect it to be a reason or the object of her apology, so "She said she was sorry for breaking the glass", "She said she was sorry about the inconvenience".
The old lady said (to him) that she was sorry. :tick:
The old lady told him that she was sorry. :tick:

Learning

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That pretty much sums it up! My only addition is to make sure that it's clear that the fact that "The old lady told him if he had knocked" is wrong, doesn't mean that you can't use the "told him/you/me if" construction:

- Did you knock?
- No.
- Are you sure?
- Yes, I'm sure.
- I thought I heard you knock.
- Oh for goodness' sake. Don't you think I would have told you if I had knocked?!

- Did you win the lottery?
- No.
- Would you tell me if you did win the lottery?
- Probably.
- Really? You love your dad and I'm not sure you would tell him if you won!

Hi,
Thank you for your reply and additional examples.

The old lady said that she was sorry (to him). :tick: without "to him". That word order simply sounds unnatural. If anything is going to follow "said that she was sorry", I would expect it to be a reason or the object of her apology, so "She said she was sorry for breaking the glass", "She said she was sorry about the inconvenience".

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Why I can't use there this patter, 'You say something to someone'? Is it just because you have to give a reason for her sorrow after 'she was sorry' and no other reason besides that one? So I can say it this way,"She said she was sorry for breaking the glass to him". Right?

learning54 said:

Hi,
Thank you for your reply and additional examples.

Why I can't use there this patter, 'You say something to someone'? Is it just because you have to give a reason for her sorrow after 'she was sorry' and no other reason besides that one? So I can say it this way,"She said she was sorry for breaking the glass to him". Right?

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That is unnatural as well. All I can really say is that (in reported speech) the shorter the gap between "say/said" and "to him/her/them" the better.

I said sorry to him. (Short sentence so it sounds OK.)
I said to him "I'm sorry".
"I'm sorry", I said to him.

She said to him that she was sorry for breaking the glass.
"I'm sorry for breaking the glass", she said to him.
She said to him "I'm sorry for breaking the glass".
She said "I'm sorry for breaking the glass" to him. (As you can see, in direct speech this sounds OK although it's definitely not the most natural.)
She said she was sorry for breaking the glass to him. (This doesn't work. I think the problem here is "the glass to him" sounds like it is all connected, and the connection between "She said" and "to him" isn't clear.)