[Grammar] "like" to mean "as if"

Status
Not open for further replies.

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Native speakers often use "like" in sentences like:

Wave you hands in the air like you just don't care.
Oh, fine, like I care!

Is it considered good English? I guess using subjunctive in those "like" clauses would be hypercorrect?
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Native speakers often use "like" in sentences like:

Wave you hands in the air like you just don't care.
Oh, fine, like I care!

Is it considered good English? I guess using subjunctive in those "like" clauses would be hypercorrect?

********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello, Birdeen's Call.

(1) I believe that you are 100% correct: most Americans probably

use like instead of as if.

(2) Since so many people use it, I guess that we may call it

good English.

(3) Nevertheless, if you are doing university-level writing, you

might want to use as if.

(4) I think that your sentence in perfect English should be:

Wave your hands in the air as if you just didn't care.

(a) My books tell me that as if is a short way to say:

Wave your hands in the air as [you would wave them] if you

didn't care.

Thank you
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Thank you. And how about:

wave your hands in the air like you just didn't care?

Not that I ever heard it, but I'm wondering if it's possible.
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Thank you. And how about:

wave your hands in the air like you just didn't care?

Not that I ever heard it, but I'm wondering if it's possible.

********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello, Birdeen's Call.

(1) Thank you for your note.

(2) Hopefully, a teacher will soon answer you.

(3) As I type, none has. So may I offer these views:

(a) Wave your hands in the air like you don't care. =

Very popular conversational English.

(b) Wave your hands in the air as if you didn't (subjunctive) care. =

Formal English.

(c) Wave your hands like you didn't care. = a combination of

(a) and (b). Is this "good" English? I do not know. Maybe it is better

to choose either the informal or formal version if you want to be sure.

(4) Hopefully, one of the teachers will soon answer you. If they don't,

just post a similar question using like and as if.

Thank you
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Thank you for your kind reply. It's not of great importance, so I will just wait patiently :) Have a nice day!
 

kfredson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Member Type
Academic
Thank you for your kind reply. It's not of great importance, so I will just wait patiently :) Have a nice day!

No, it is a very important question. You need not wait for a "teacher." The Parser is a teacher to us all and has done a characteristically clear and elegant job of explaining the nuances of this little grammatical conundrum. I try to get my students to use "as if" in their writing, but it is has become increasingly difficult.

Having said that, I would differ with our Parser on this one little point. It seems to me that you can get away with the present tense in your sentence:
Wave you hands in the air as if you just don't care.

I would only use "did" if you were making the point that the person really does care but is acting differently. (Perhaps that is indeed the situation here; it isn't so clear to me.)

As for the following sentence, it is clearly colloquial. You would (unfortunately) hear it routinely in spoken English, at least in the USA.
Oh, fine, like I care!

As always, I would enjoy getting The Parser's further comments on this.
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Oh, I didn't want to diminish TheParser's explanation! I just said I wanted to wait for an answer for the one question TheParser didn't answer.

I must say I'm astonished by what you say. I've never seen "as if" with the present tense. Do you have any further reading for me on this topic? For me, it's hypothetical no matter what. It would be an interesting thing to learn.

What I dubbed "of little importance" is the question of a clause starting with "like" and kept in the past (subjunctive). Could you refer to it?
 

bertietheblue

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
Is 'wave your hands in the air like you didn't care' an example of the use of the past in the present (or attitudinal past), which is sometimes used as a more polite form than the present tense, eg 'Did you want a cup of tea?' v 'Do you want a cup of tea?'? If so, I don't see the politeness in 'wave your hands in the air like you didn't care', so can the attitudinal past have other functions?
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
Is 'wave your hands in the air like you didn't care' an example of the use of the past in the present (or attitudinal past), which is sometimes used as a more polite form than the present tense, eg 'Did you want a cup of tea?' v 'Do you want a cup of tea?'? If so, I don't see the politeness in 'wave your hands in the air like you didn't care', so can the attitudinal past have other functions?
I don't know what attitudinal past is... I always thought we used the past subjunctive to refer to hypothetical situations/actions. And I think "as if" introduces something hypothetical. I don't think it has anything to do with politeness.

I was simply taught to use it this way, never saw it used otherwise, and thought it was logical. So it isn't?
 

bertietheblue

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
I don't know what attitudinal past is... I always thought we used the past subjunctive to refer to hypothetical situations/actions. And I think "as if" introduces something hypothetical. I don't think it has anything to do with politeness.

I was simply taught to use it this way, never saw it used otherwise, and thought it was logical. So it isn't?

Yeah, maybe you're right and it's just the 2nd conditional:

like you didn't care = as if you didn't care = as you would if you didn't care.
 

kfredson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Member Type
Academic
I don't know what attitudinal past is... I always thought we used the past subjunctive to refer to hypothetical situations/actions. And I think "as if" introduces something hypothetical. I don't think it has anything to do with politeness.

I was simply taught to use it this way, never saw it used otherwise, and thought it was logical. So it isn't?

I have never understood "as if" to only be used in a hypothetical/subjunctive case.

Doesn't it depend on the situation?
For instance, you might say, "He looked as if he were thirty years old." The implication is that he was not.
"Gee, officer, it appears/appeared to me as if he is/was thirty years old or so." You are simply estimating his age. Now, you might normally say "It appears to me that he is..." but I don't believe that the use of "as if" is incorrect, is it?

Or, to give an example closer to yours, we might tell our team,
"Cheer for your other players as if you really hope to win!"
Again, there may be better ways to say this, but it is not incorrect, is it?
"Cheer for your other players as you really hoped to win!" This is somewhat ambiguous and could well mean that you assume that they don't, in fact, care about winning.

I hope others will shed some light on what is (for me, at least) a tricky situation. If I have been carrying a misconception around all these years I will be very grateful to be relieved of it!
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
bertietheblue
Now you've got me totally lost :) So it's "like you didn't", not "like you don't"??

kfredson
What you say has surely something to it. I'm as surely not one to judge :) Interesting, I will also be very grateful for more comments on this topic.
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Native speakers often use "like" in sentences like:

Wave you hands in the air like you just don't care.
Oh, fine, like I care!

Is it considered good English? I guess using subjunctive in those "like" clauses would be hypercorrect?

********** NOT A TEACHER **********

Hello, Birdeen's Call.


(1) I have just returned from my daily walk and discovered with great

delight that two wonderful teachers have helped you and me.

(2) Teacher Kfredson is 100% correct: you can definitely use either

the subjunctive or non-subjunctive after as if/like -- depending on the

meaning you wish to give:

She looks as if she is rich. = Maybe she actually is rich!!!

He talks as if he were (was in popular English) rich. = But we know that

he is not rich.

These two examples come from Mr. Michael Swan's very popular

Practical English Grammar.

(3) Many years ago, the rule was quite strict, As if takes the subjunctive.

But speakers have broken away from this rigid rule because there are

times when you are talking about a fact. Teacher Kfredson gave some

examples that you can use as a model when you decide whether you

should use the subjunctive or non-subjunctive after as if/like.

(4) If we remember that many Americans use like instead of as if, it

seems that you have a wide choice of "good" English:

Wave your hands as if/ like you didn't/don't care. Apparently,

any combination is OK -- depending on your meaning.

If I understood Teacher Kfredson correctly:

Wave your hands as if/like you don't care = You really do not care!!!

Wave your hands as if/like you didn't care = You do care but you do not

want the other person to know your inner feelings.

(5) Thanks a million for your question. I learned so much. Namely, that

as if in modern English sometimes goes better with a non-subjunctive

verb.

Thank you
 

birdeen's call

VIP Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
Poland
(3) Many years ago, the rule was quite strict, As if takes the subjunctive.

But speakers have broken away from this rigid rule because there are

times when you are talking about a fact.
It was many years ago when I learned the rule - maybe that's why I was so struck by this information. I'm only wondering how come I never stumbled upon this construction. Maybe I just happened to pay no heed :)

Thanks a billion to Parser, Bertie, and Kfredson for sharing your knowledge with me! :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top