the fact that ....

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Barb_D

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I've never been able to remember the official rules with "due to" and "because" so I figured it was the same sort of thing.

I'm in complete agreement with you that "We eat out despite that it is snowing" doesn't work regardless of whether you use "despite" or "in spite of."
 

TheParser

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I've never been able to remember the official rules with "due to" and "because" so I figured it was the same sort of thing.

I'm in complete agreement with you that "We eat out despite that it is snowing" doesn't work regardless of whether you use "despite" or "in spite of."

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Good afternoon, Ms. Barbara.

(1) It appears that nowadays ESL students are often taught that "because of" and "due to" are both prepositions -- especially since most native speakers use them that way.

(2) Strict teachers (if there are any around anymore) say:

(a) because of = preposition.

(i) I was late because of traffic problems.

(b) "due" is an adjective.

(i) Therefore, one should say: My lateness was DUE (to traffic problems).

(a) The prepositional phrase modifies the adjective "due," which in turn refers to "lateness."

(b) Of course, native speakers are going to say:

I was late because of/ due to traffic problems.

Thank you.
 

Barb_D

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(b) Of course, native speakers are going to say:

I was late because of/ due to traffic problems.

Thank you.

Yup - that's the main problem! When everyone around you uses them interchangeably, it's hard to remember that there is supposed to be a difference! Thanks for your post, though!
 

panicmonger

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(iii) To make it more formal, you may introduce the noun clause with "that," which some books call an "expletive." It means absolutely nothing:

We eat out despite the fact (that + it is snowing).

Have a nice day!

Thanks for your elaboration of this point, so that explains why "wh-conjunctions" can tail "despite" or "in spite of", because they are not expletive, whereas "that" is an expletive, dummy word.
Does the reason seem right to you?
 

corum

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CGEL, subordinators, 14.12., p.999.

COMPLEX SUBORDINATORS

ending with 'that':
such that, save that, in the event that, in order that, but that, in that, in order that, insofar that

ending with optional 'that':

(a) participle form:
assuming (that), considering (that), granting (that), granted (that), providing (that), provided (that), excepting (that), given (that), seeing (that), supposing (that)

(b) others:
except (that), for all (that), now (that), so (that)

The omission of an optional 'that' in the complex subordinators tends to lower the level of formality. On the other hand, the inclusion of 'that' may avoid ambiguity.

There is a continuing trend to use prepositions also as subordinators.
On account (of) <esp AmE>, another recent example, has achieved somewhat greater acceptability in informal style:
I can't come on account (of) I have to look after my baby brother.

14. 14. Marginal subordinators
As with complex prepositions, it is difficult to distinguish categorically between complex subordinators and free syntactic constructions. Several marginal types require discussion.

Type1 consists of a habitual combination of subordinator with a preceding or following adverb; for example 'even if' and 'if only'. We regard these as subordinators because the meaning of the subordinator is affected by the presence of the adverb.
Type2 consists of noun phrases that commonly function as temporal adverbials; for example, 'the moment (that'), and 'every time (that). WE consider these to be more like free syntactic constructions than like complex subordinators. The relationship between 'the moment' and the following clause, for example, can be explained as the head of the noun phrase modified by a restrictive relative clause, the noun phrase functioning as adverbial of time.

I recognized him [that] moment.
I recognized [the] moment [that I saw him].

The phrase permits a range of structureal variations

Just the first moment that I saw him...

Type3 consists of prepositional phrases ending in 'the fact that'. They express relationships of reason and concession. Because they can be replaced more concisely by a simple conjunction, they are considered to be stylistically clumsy. Examples include:

because of the fact that
due to the fact that
on account of the fact that
in (the) light of the fact that
in spite of the fact that
regardless of the fact that

The first four can be replaced by 'because', the last two by 'although'.

These allow some variation of the preposition and considerable variation of the head of the noun phrase. Compare:

In spite of the fact/the news/your report/my belief that they were sick...

We should regard the fact/ the news/your report/my belief noun phrase complements followed by a clause in apposition.

Type4 consists of participle forms such as 'supposing (that)' and provided (that). The participles form a gradient. Some retain certain properties charactersitic of verbs, while those that are most like simple conjunctions have lost all such properties. Thu,s like other participles, 'supposing' and 'assuming' can be expanded by adverbials:

supposing for the sake of argument that
assuming as a result of your advice that

On the other hand, like many adverb, 'seeing' and 'considering' can be followed by conjunctions other than 'that':

Seeing how he reacted
Considering how he reacted

But most important of all, the conjunction 'seeing', 'provided', 'providing', and 'given' are now distinct from the participles in meaning and in not requiring subject identification, so that they cannot be viewed as the verb in participle clause.

--------------
The grammar of 'in spite of', as I perceive:

(a) in spite of = complex preposition

in spite of + noun phrase:
In spite of the weather, we will play.

(b) in spite of followed by the obligatorily present 'the fact that' = marginal subordinator
 

tedtmc

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We eat out even though it is snowing.
I would prefer this sentence.
But the original question asked was whether we can omit 'the fact' from this sentence:
We eat out despite the fact that it is snowing
.
We eat out despite something.
We eat out despite the fact.
The fact is that it is snowing.
Therefore, it follows that :
We eat out despite that it is snowing.

So, except to Corum, this logic is wrong?
 

corum

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So, except to Corum, this logic is wrong?

We have to learn that an astute, perceptive analysis is often not enough to take ourselves inside the world of grammar. Read my previous post in this thread.
 

TheParser

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Thanks for your elaboration of this point, so that explains why "wh-conjunctions" can tail "despite" or "in spite of", because they are not expletive, whereas "that" is an expletive, dummy word.
Does the reason seem right to you?

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Good morning, panicmonger.

(1) I believe that in one of your posts in this thread, you stated that part of your confusion arises from the fact that you believe "that" is a WH- word.

(a) According to my books, "that" has never been classified as a WH- word.

(2) I believe that your main concern is about a sentence similar to:

Despite WHAT you say, I am going to climb that tall mountain.

(3) You ask: How can a WH-word follow a preposition.

(a) Well, maybe (MAYBE) because "what" in that sentence is NOT really a wh- word (despite/ in spite of its appearance).

(b) My high school-level books tell me "what" in that sentence is an indefinite relative pronoun.

(i) In other words, "what" = that which

(c) Therefore, the sentence is really:

Despite that (which you say), I am going to climb that tall mountain.

(i) "that" is a pronoun serving as the object of the preposition.

(ii)which you say = adjective clause that modifies "that."

(iii) MONA: If you climb that mountain, I shall divorce you.

TOM: Despite that, I am going to climb it. ("that" = the words just uttered by his wife.)

Have a nice day!
 

euncu

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But for (the fact) that the resue team had came to me, I would have died already.

***neither a teacher nor a native-speaker***

What would be wrong with a simpler structure? ;

If it hadn't been for the rescue team, I would have died already.
or,
If it hadn't been for the rescue team, I would have been dead already.
 
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emsr2d2

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***neither a teacher nor a native-speaker***

What would be wrong with a simpler structure? ;

If it hadn't been for the rescue team, I would have died already.
or,
If it hadn't been for the rescue team, I would have been dead already.

Or even "We're going to eat out even though it is snowing". I admit I have almost completely forgotten what the original point of this thread was!
 

panicmonger

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***** NOT A TEACHER *****
Good morning, panicmonger.

(i) In other words, "what" = that which

Have a nice day!
Good morning, TheParser.

yup, you are right, what is an indefinite relative pronoun. Thanks.

What about where, when & how? They are conjunctions, not relative pronouns, after prepositions.

For instance:
1. We are proud of you despite WHERE you are living now.
2. I still will love you despite HOW you feel about me.

The WHERE and HOW above are not relative pronouns but conjunctions, just as:
1. You will tell me WHEN you are back, won't you.
(WHEN you are back is noun clause, but WHEN is conjunction)

2. I know WHERE you have been.
(WHERE you have been is noun clause, but WHERE is conjunction)

I am hoping for your insight into this query. Thanks no end.
Or anyone's advice.
 
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corum

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TheParser

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Good morning, panicmonger.

(1) Thank you for your kind note.

(2) Of course, I -- sadly -- have no insight. All I can do is let you know what I have read in my books.

(3) You have asked some wonderful questions. I also want to know the answers.

(4) Corum has given us some interesting ideas. Hopefully, other members will join in, too.

(5) As for me, I need to do some studying before I even dare try to give you an answer.
If I don't reply, it will mean that your question was too hard for me to answer with confidence.

(6) Thanks again for posting such a great question.

Have a nice day!
 

panicmonger

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(2) Of course, I -- sadly -- have no insight. All I can do is let you know what I have read in my books.

Sorry, if I said something that have offended you. But I think you misunderstood the sentence below.

"I am hoping for your insight into this query."

What I really meant is that I am waiting for your new answer to this question. Perhaps my expression is poor, so it make you misconstrue my words, I'm sorry about that. I am still hoping for your insightful answer.
 
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panicmonger

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It is a pronoun that has no antecedent and has indefinite reference.

I know what you mean.

It is an indefinite connective adverb, a kind of subordinator.

same

Where, When and How are subordinate conjunctions, but they are still conjunctions, not indefinite relative pronouns. (according to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

In my humble opinion, the "when" below is true pronoun:
He came on Monday, since when things have been better.

It is just my opinion, pls take it lightly.
 
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TheParser

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Sorry, if I said something that have offended you. But I think you misunderstood the sentence below.

"I am hoping for your insight into this query."

What I really meant is that I am waiting for your new answer to this question. Perhaps my expression is poor, so it make you misconstrue my words, I'm sorry about that. I am still hoping for your insightful answer.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Thank you for your note.

(1) This is a wonderful lesson in the use of English.

(2) Your sentence could not have offended me. In English, your sentence was a wonderful compliment.

(3) And my answer was a courteous way to say: Oh, no! I am not that smart to give you an insightful answer.

(4) This shows how misunderstandings can arise. It also taught me a lesson: I should be more direct. I should remember that it takes time for learners to understand the nuances of another language.

(a) I am trying to learn Chinese and Spanish. I realize that I could easily say something that offends people.

(5) Thanks again for the COMPLIMENT. I'm still studying the matter. Hopefully, lots of people will help us.

Have a nice day!
 

kl004535

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It is an indefinite connective adverb, a kind of subordinator.

You mean they are relative adverbs. However, some Grammar Guide states they are subordinators or conjunctions.

Is the difference due to the different grammarians' standpoints?
 

corum

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You mean they are relative adverbs. However, some Grammar Guide states they are subordinators or conjunctions.

Is the difference due to the different grammarians' standpoints?

This is the terminology I tend to follow:

Connector is a large group of words that serve to join words, phrases or entire clauses. The group has three sub-types based on form-class (and not connective types). These are: conjunction, connective adverb, connective pronoun.
This means three parts of speech can join clauses and sentence constituents. Prepositions or interjections, for example, can't.

1. Conjunction embraces the two categories coordinators and subordinators.

(a) Coordinator (and, or, but, etc.)

FANBOYS. It is an acronym that is used as a mnemonics to recall the types of coordinators. Y = yet.
I think the inventors of the acronym used a different terminology from that which I use. 'Yet' is an adverbial conjunct in my book, one of the four types of adverbials.

(b) Subordinator (while, although, because, unless, etc)
I have always though that only subordinators can introduce subordinate clauses. This is not true. Look at this sentence:

We are proud of you despite WHERE you are living now.

The whole sentence is the matrix clause or superordinate clause. 'despite' is a preposition. What follows 'despite' is a sentence constituent: a prepositional complement. How is this constituent realized? A subordinate clause is embedded into the superordinate clause. Why subordinate? Because it plays a sub role. Sub role how? It realizes part of the matrix clause. 'Where' in the sentence is a connective adverb and not a subordinator.

There is a gradience running through between the class of coordinators and subordinators, which means there are instances of conjunctions that are not clear-cut between coordinator and subordinator? Why not clear-cut? Because the two categories have distinct features and these linking words looks like hybrids. It is not within the scope of our present considerations, so I am not going into it in detail.

2. Connective adverb
This is the second sub-group of fconnectors. The group of Connective adverbs has several sub-types. These are:

(a) Adnominal conjunctive adverb

This was the time when we first met.

The bolded part plays a subordinate role because it specifies 'the time'. It describes 'the time' so it has adnominal (not nominal) function. 'when' is relative because it relates to its antecedent. 'the time'. Cool.

(b) Nominal conjunctive adverbs

This is where I am.

where I am = 'This'; subjective complement --> subordinate; nominal

(c) Adverbial conjunct

These are, however, all the same, nevertheless, etc. They provide a semantic link between clauses.

(d) Conjunctive adverbs

They are interrogative adverbs used to introduce embedded questions.

He asked me how I did.
He asked where I am.
He asked why I came.

3. Connective pronouns

(a) Relative adnominal connective pronouns

I do not they guy who is standing over there.

'who' is part of 'who is standing there'. 'who is standing there' modifies 'the guy', hence adnominal (non-nominal, adjectival). Connective, because it connects the sub-clause to the rest of the matrix clause. Pronoun, because 'who' is a pronoun. Adnominal connective pronouns usually have an antecedent.

Another example:

This is the time that we die.
-- that we die = adverbial and not adjectival --> non-nominal --> adnominal; that = connective pronoun

(b) Relative nominal connective pronoun

Relative nominal connective pronouns do not have an antecedent.

This is what we want.

(c) Conjunctive connective pronoun
He asked me what it was.
 
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corum

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4. I forgot to mention the category connective adjectives.

(a) Conjunctive adjective

I do not know which train to take.

'which' is not an adjective. It is a pronoun. What does 'adjective' in 'connective adjective' refer to then? Concentrate on 'which train'. The slot that 'which' occupies is usually reserved for adjectives. That is what 'adjective' refers to.

(b) Adnominal connective adjective

However, considerable problems have been encountered with these various approaches, many of which problems have been overcome by the process disclosed in X.
 

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Good afternoon, panicmonger.

(1) I am happy that many persons have responded to your questions.

(2) I have studied my books, and I am now 70% confident that my answers are "correct."

(3) Let's consider some of your sentences:

(a) We are proud of you despite/ in spite of (where you are living).

(i) This is probably a short way to say: We are proud of you + in spite of + (the place) + where you are living.

(a) the place = object of the preposition.

(b) where = relative adverb. That is, it's an adverb because it modifies "are living" and it also "relates" to the word "place."

(c) where you are living = adjective clause modifying "place."

(d) IMPORTANT: some books may feel that "where you are living" is just a noun clause introduced by a relative adverb and serving as object of the preposition.

(b) I love you in spite of how you feel about me. (P. S. I am using "in spite of" rather than "despite" because it seems to better bring out the meaning of a preposition.)

(i) Probably the full sentence is:

I love you + in spite of + (the way) + how (= in which) you feel about me.

(a) Again, we have a relative adverb (how)/ The way = object of the preposition.

(c) He came on Monday, since when things have been better.

(i) I had to think long and hard about this one.

(ii) I think it might be analyzed as:

He came on Monday + since (preposition) + that time + when (at which) things have been better.

(a) Again, "when" = relative adverb. (Modifies "have been" and "relates" (thus the word "relative") to "that time.")

(4) As you will find out as you study more English, you have to "fill in" many missing words when you try to analyze a sentence. The word for leaving out words is "ellipsis."

Thank you for your questions. I learned a lot. Have a nice weekend.
 
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