Homeliness

Hello,

Can anybody tell me what homeliness and angular awkwardness mean in the text below?


She laughed at that. “Oh, I don’t do any of the sheriffing. I take Dan’s notes for him and type them, but he does all the hard work.”
This was a clever woman. For all the pleasant homeliness of that long face of hers and the angular awkwardness of the way she sat in her chair, I was conscious of her shrewdness and mentally decided that it would be well to be cautious about what we said to her.
She took another pull on her cigarette and remarked, “I hope you’re not offended by my knowing who you are.”
“Not at all,” I told her. “Flattered. But there does seem to have been a good deal of talk about Julian and the rest of us in the village.”

Edge of Running Water, William Sloane, 1939.


Thanks.

Her face was homely.

The way she sat was angular in an awkward way.

Yes, but the word homely has a lot of meanings. How should I tell which one is correct? Logically, I would say homely refers to friendliness, kindliness in the context but the fact is this is the British meaning. The story takes place in Maine and the US meaning of the word homely is ugly, unattractive ... So sometimes it is really hard to tell which meaning is the right one.

Thank you very much for helping me.

Johnyxxx said:

the US meaning of the word homely is ugly, unattractive ...

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Really?! I had no idea that was the case.

It's an American novel, so homely means "unattractive".

GoesStation said:

It's an American novel, so homely means "unattractive".

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Well, you learn something something new every year. Thanks!

So "For all her pleasant homeliness" suggests she was "pleasantly ugly". Is that right? It sounds very odd to me.

I wonder how homely came to have that sense for Americans.

Does anyone think it comes from the idea that a typical American housewife of a bygone age was considered, um, not especially beautiful? It's just for women, right?

It's certainly kinder to call a woman or her face homely rather than ugly/unattractive.

Rover_KE said:

It's certainly kinder to call a woman or her face homely rather than ugly/unattractive.

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To her face, yes, but this is a novel. I don't think the author is trying to be kind.

emsr2d2 said:

So "For all her pleasant homeliness" suggests she was "pleasantly ugly". Is that right? It sounds very odd to me.

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More or less. Homely doesn't mean repulsive; it's more on the level of plainness.

jutfrank said:

I wonder how homely came to have that sense for Americans.

Does anyone think it comes from the idea that a typical American housewife of a bygone age was considered, um, not especially beautiful? It's just for women, right?

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Homely works equally well for men or women. I don't know how it came to mean what it does, but I doubt it has any association with the perceived attractiveness of housewives. Where did you find the idea that typical American housewives were once considered unattractive?

Rover_KE said:

It's certainly kinder to call a woman or her face homely rather than ugly/unattractive.

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I wouldn't try it.

GoesStation said:

Homely works equally well for men or women. I don't know how it came to mean what it does, but I doubt it has any association with the perceived attractiveness of housewives. Where did you find the idea that typical American housewives were once considered unattractive?

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I guess by 'unattractive' I meant 'plain', i.e., 'not beautiful'. Housewives are found at home. I'm surprised that a 'homely' appearance can be used to describe men.

I'll stop commenting now before I inadvertently offend anyone.

emsr2d2 said:

So "For all her pleasant homeliness" suggests she was "pleasantly ugly". Is that right? It sounds very odd to me.

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GoesStation said:

More or less. Homely doesn't mean repulsive; it's more on the level of plainness.

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Right, that's how I've always understood and used the term. Not ugly or repulsive, just not particularly attractive or remarkable.

jutfrank said:

I wonder how homely came to have that sense for Americans.

Does anyone think it comes from the idea that a typical American housewife of a bygone age was considered, um, not especially beautiful? It's just for women, right?

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I doubt that, because I've seen the term used to refer to men as well, although not as commonly as women. It's kind of antiquated anyway, at least in AmE, as is its opposite term 'comely'. I also don't think I've ever heard of 'comely' being used to refer to men outside of the Bible, however.

I wondered if there wasn't a connection to the word 'home' and having plain things at home, which is supported by this online etymology site. That source claims that at least in the Northeastern US, 'ugly' was reserved for temperament.

I don't know about it being limited to the NE US though, because I've occasionally used and heard the phrase 'ugly temper' myself.

Re: jutfrank's post #10 It's not the author "being kind", it's the narrator...


Physical beauty is perhaps the most subjective thing there is. When I thought of the word "homely", I immediately thought of American Gothic, the painting by Grant Wood. I don't think anyone would describe the woman as beautiful (even with a smile on her face), but neither is she particularly ugly. I think that the couple rather illustrate the two opposite boundaries of what I would call homely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameri...od_-_American_Gothic_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

Off-topic, but thank GOD for the summary at the bottom of that page. I never would have understood what was happening in that picture with that description (replete with typo).

Man and woman with stern expession stand side-by-side. The man holds a pitch fork and wears glasses.

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Skrej said:

Off-topic, but thank GOD for the summary at the bottom of that page. I never would have understood what was happening in that picture with that description (replete with typo).

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That could be a description for the visually impaired.

But yes, "homely" in US English means anywhere from "plain" to "unattractive". Apparently the term evolved from the idea of domestic scenes being plain, simple, and unadorned:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=homely

Okay, I'm sensing that it doesn't mean 'ugly', it means 'plain'. It's more 'not attractive' than 'unattractive', if you know what I mean.