[Grammar] Mixing Tenses

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vpriest

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[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]Hi,[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]*Under the condition that Peter is alive and still loves painting. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)](A) Peter loves painting so much that he worked as an art teacher at an elementary school.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)](B) Peter loved painting so much that he worked as an art teacher at an elementary school.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]I learned that it's (A) if you are trying to convey the fact that he still does. However, I read somewhere that it's still best to keep both in past tense in formal writings because (B) does not mean that he doesn't love anymore.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]Is (A) the most correct answer if I want to be clear? [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]Thanks![/COLOR]
 

Rover_KE

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Welcome to the forum, vpriest.

Please re-submit your post without trying to change the colour and font size.
 

vpriest

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Welcome to the forum, vpriest.

Please re-submit your post without trying to change the colour and font size.

Hi,

Under the condition that Peter is still alive and he still loves painting:

(A)Peter loves painting so much that he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.
(B)Peter loved painting so much that he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.

If Peter is still alive and still loves painting, would (A) be more clear and suitable when writing academically/in formal writing?

I know that if the information is still relevant today, you can mix tenses. However, I think I also read somewhere that it's best to keep both in past tense in formal writing.


Thanks.
 

teechar

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[STRIKE]Hi,

Under the condition that[/STRIKE] Peter is still alive and he still loves painting. Which of the following two sentences would be appropriate?

(A)Peter loves painting so much that he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.
(B)Peter loved painting so much that he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.

If Peter is still alive and still loves painting, would (A) be more clear and suitable when writing academically/in formal writing?

I know that if the information is still relevant today, you can mix tenses. However, I think I also read somewhere that it's best to keep both in the past tense in formal writing.
Formality is not the issue here. If Peter still loves painting, then the present simple (loves) is correct and appropriate.
By the way, please go to your profile page and modify your details. I don't think what's there is correct.
 

vpriest

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Formality is not the issue here. If Peter still loves painting, then the present simple (loves) is correct and appropriate.
By the way, please go to your profile page and modify your details. I don't think what's there is correct.

(A)Peter loves painting so much that he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.


So that's a perfectly fine, right?


Or is it better to change it to the following?


(C)Peter loves painting so much and he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.


Thank you!
 

teechar

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(A)Peter loves painting so much that he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.
So that's a perfectly fine, right?
Yes.

Or is it better to change it to the following?
(C)Peter loves painting so much and he even worked as a part time art teacher at an elementary school.
That changes the meaning. In "A", Peter's intense love for painting was the direct reason behind his working as an arts teacher. In "C", you're just stating two (related) facts.

I note that you've also asked the same question on at least one other forum.
https://www.englishforums.com/English/MixedTensesInOneSentence/bphpbn/post.htm

In future, please do not post the same question simultaneously to more than one forum. Doing so wastes our valuable time. Instead, post your question to one forum and wait for replies. If you're not satisfied with those replies, you can try another forum, but please indicate in your thread that you've already asked the same question elsewhere (provide a link), and outline why you were not satisfied with the answers you received already.
 

vpriest

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If Peter worked as a part time art teacher like 7 years or so ago, should I still keep the first clause in present tense?
 

teechar

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Again, if Peter still loves painting, use the present simple.
 

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I'm trying to work out where vpriest's question is coming from.

vpriest—I have a feeling that what you're asking about is to do with the fact that Peter's taking on the job as a teacher was a causally direct result of his loving painting. That's why you've rephrased the sentence from a resultative 'so ... that ...' sentence in post #5. Right?

And since taking the job was a causal result of the love of painting, then it only makes sense that the verb loved should be past tense, right? Because it's the love of painting at that point in past time that was the cause. If the love was the cause, then the love must be temporally prior. Have I understood your question correctly? If so, then the past tense loved is what you mean. It doesn't actually matter whether Peter still loves painting now because we're talking exclusively about the past.

As teechar usefully points out, this has nothing to do with formality. It's all about what you mean.
 

vpriest

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I'm trying to work out where vpriest's question is coming from.

vpriest—I have a feeling that what you're asking about is to do with the fact that Peter's taking on the job as a teacher was a causally direct result of his loving painting. That's why you've rephrased the sentence from a resultative 'so ... that ...' sentence in post #5. Right?

And since taking the job was a causal result of the love of painting, then it only makes sense that the verb loved should be past tense, right? Because it's the love of painting at that point in past time that was the cause. If the love was the cause, then the love must be temporally prior. Have I understood your question correctly? If so, then the past tense loved is what you mean. It doesn't actually matter whether Peter still loves painting now because we're talking exclusively about the past.

As teechar usefully points out, this has nothing to do with formality. It's all about what you mean.

The intended goal is to indicate how much he loves painting. So the whole taking the job part is to provide evidence to support how much he loves. So the emphasis is on the loving part.

Is the past tense the only correct answer in this case?

Would it be wrong to keep it in the present?
 
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Charlie Bernstein

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The intended goal is to indicate how much he loves painting. So the whole taking the job part is to provide evidence to support how much he loves. So the emphasis is on the loving part.

Is the past tense the only correct answer in this case?

Would it be wrong to keep it in the present?
I think that's been answered above.

If he loves it now, that part should be in the present tense. If he taught it then, that part should be in the past tense.

The present is now, the past was then.

It's fine to have more than one tense in a sentence.
 

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From what you've told us, it's clear that you need a present tense, not a past tense. The past tense would be wrong because the point of the sentence is to talk about his present love of painting.

But there's a still the problem of the present-past causation to sort out, because, for me at least, it really doesn't work with the mixed tenses. One way to fix that is to bring both tenses into the present, like this:

Peter loves painting so much that he has worked as an art teacher at an elementary school.

Although this gets rid of the mixed tenses problem, I'd still prefer a rewrite, dispensing with the resultative 'so ... that' structure entirely.
 

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vpriest, I'm writing this in anticipation of the post you're just about to submit, re the PM you sent me.

As I understand, the aim of your sentence is to serve as (part of?) an introductory character profile for a website. Well, as I said before, I'd suggest a rewrite, dispensing with the resultative 'so that'. Here are a few ways, for example, that you could think about phrasing, all of which make clear that loving painting is both past cause and present factuality:

Peter has a great love of painting, which has led him to work as an art teacher at an elementary school, as well as volunteering for...
Peter has always loved painting, and has spent seven years working ...
Peter's continued love of painting has found him working at an elementary school and doing voluntary work for ...


There are countless ways of phrasing the sentence. The best way to do it depends of course on the context as much as anything else. If you can provide a bit more of the context, we'll be able to make more appropriate suggestions.
 
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vpriest

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Peter's great love of painting led him to ~ and ~. Would that also work?
 

jutfrank

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Possibly, yes. But it's not clear why you want to use a past tense. Why don't you want to use present perfect?

Can't you give us the wider context so we can see how you wish to actually use this sentence? Until you do, there isn't much use in our offering suggestions.
 

vpriest

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The context is just that one line to describe what he loves and show how much he loves it. No other sentence will support. It's a part of a brief description of who he is.

Peter has been working with Neople's graphics design team since 2009. ~ Ever since he was a kid, he has loved to draw. His great love of painting led him to volunteer ~ and so on. ~ ~~

Does that help?
 

jutfrank

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The context is just that one line to describe what he loves and show how much he loves it. No other sentence will support. It's a part of a brief description of who he is.

Peter has been working with Neople's graphics design team since 2009. ~ Ever since he was a kid, he has loved to draw. His great love of painting led him to volunteer ~ and so on. ~ ~~

Does that help?

It helps a bit because we can see that you're writing in the present tense. So my question of why you want to transition to a past tense remains. Could you finish the sentence, please? Are you needing a past tense because you're focusing on a specific past time? It still isn't completely clear from the context.
 

vpriest

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It helps a bit because we can see that you're writing in the present tense. So my question of why you want to transition to a past tense remains. Could you finish the sentence, please? Are you needing a past tense because you're focusing on a specific past time? It still isn't completely clear from the context.

Peter has been working with Neople's graphics design team since 2009. He always loved his art classes at school. His great love of painting led him to not only volunteer to teach poor children but also to work at an elementary school as an art teacher. He has been working with the team for the last 10 years, and he hopes to create more amazing games with the team.

I modified it a bit.

Something like that. so it's just one line only. I'll get rid of the even the "ever since the kid part." I just put it in there to help with the context. I just feel that the stuffs he did were done in the past and he no longer does them. So I felt that keeping it in the past sounds better flow wise. So he still loves painting but the volunteering and working as an art teacher were all in the past. Do I still have to use the present tense?
 
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jutfrank

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Yes, that sounds good now. The tenses are all appropriate.
 

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I'd write led him not only to volunteer … but also to work at an elementary school ….
 
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