in 1912 that or in 1912 when

Status
Not open for further replies.

ostap77

Key Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Ukraine
Current Location
Ukraine
"It was in 1912 that the Titanic sank." OK?

OR

""It was in 1912 when the Titanic sank." OK?
 

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
Both versions sound correct to me.

I prefer the first.

Rover
 

Amigos4

VIP Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States

ostap77

Key Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Ukraine
Current Location
Ukraine
Both versions sound correct to me.

I prefer the second. ;-)

Would the second one be grammatically acceptable on the tast?
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Would the second one be grammatically acceptable on the tast?


NOT A TEACHER


(1) All the posters have given you and me excellent answers, and

Sunsunmoon's link was great! (I have printed it out to keep.)

(2) If you ever have this question on a test, you would be wise to follow

the advice of the posters who recommended "that."

(3) Consider this conversation:

Joe: Excuse me. Do you know when the Titanic sank?

Martha: Why, yes, I do. It sank in 1912.

Joe: Thank you.

Martha: You're welcome.

(No doubt, some native speakers would say: Oh, sure, I do. As I

remember, it was in 1912 when the Titanic sank.)

(4) Now consider this conversation:

Mona: I'm very smart. I know that the Titanic sank in 1910 in the Atlantic Ocean.

Ralph: You're stupid. It sank in 1913.

Tomas: You're both stupid. It was in 1912 (that the Titanic sank).

(a) You use that kind of sentence when you want to emphasize

something. In Tomas's case, he wanted to emphasize "1912."

(b) He could have emphasized other parts of the sentence that way:

It was the Titanic that sank in 1912 in the Atlantic. (not another ship)

It was in the Atlantic that the Titanic sank. (not in the Pacific)

(c) My books call this kind of sentence a "cleft sentence."

According to the rule, one should use "that" in cleft sentences.

(5) Without context, it is impossible to know whether the answer is meant

as a regular answer (as in Joe and Martha's conversation) or as a cleft

sentence (as in the second conversation). Thus, it would be safer to

stay with "that."


Respectfully yours,


James
 

ostap77

Key Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Ukraine
Current Location
Ukraine
Just a big THANK YOU for always giving us leaners such great

links.

The one you gave us in this thread was awesome (as you young

people say).

Thanks again,


James

Here's the example I pulled from the BBC web-site.

"It was last Saturday when my brother bought his new car from our neighbour."

Would there be a difference if it were "It was on Aug. 5 when my brother bought his new car from our neighbour."? Should it be "......that my brother bought ........."?
 

bhaisahab

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
Ireland

crazYgeeK

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Vietnamese
Home Country
Vietnam
Current Location
Vietnam
Both versions sound correct to me.

I prefer the first.

Rover

Can you be sure if I choose "that" for the same context in an English test, I'll get a good mark?
I'm sorry but if I have to fight for a good mark in the test, I must choose "when" as the safest choice! Or the sentence in the OP is an exception that we can use both in a grammatical way?
Thank you so much!
 

ostap77

Key Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Ukraine
Current Location
Ukraine
I much prefer the first. I don't like the second at all.

I'll put my question this way. Would you consider test queations where you have to choose between "when" and "that" accurate without any context and not knowing which part of the sentence the speaker wants to emphasize? Because our teacher says "that is correct and when is incorrect".
 

emsr2d2

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
I prefer the first sentence. It sound much more natural and is not ambiguous.

It was in 1912 that Titanic sank.

I would expect "when" to be used in connection with other information, within a clause:

It was in 1912, when Titanic sank, that people realised that ship builders are not infallible.
 

bhaisahab

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
Ireland
I'll put my question this way. Would you consider test queations where you have to choose between "when" and "that" accurate without any context and not knowing which part of the sentence the speaker wants to emphasize? Because our teacher says "that is correct and when is incorrect".
My advice would be to use "that" in the "Titanic" sentence.l
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Here's the example I pulled from the BBC web-site.

"It was last Saturday when my brother bought his new car from our neighbour."

Would there be a difference if it were "It was on Aug. 5 when my brother bought his new car from our neighbour."? Should it be "......that my brother bought ........."?


NOT A TEACHER


DEAR MEMBER OSTAP:


(1) I went to the BBC website and saw that sentence and also this

one: 7 May 1945 was the day (when) the Second World War ended

in Europe.

(a) The BBC is a wonderful news organization and I can only dream of

being able to speak and write as well as those BBC newsreaders.

(b) But you have to satisfy your teachers who, understandably, have

to teach the "rules."

(c) I strongly recommend that you google "BBC cleft sentences." Then

click on the 7th result ("Cleft sentences - TOPIC"). You will find that

some sentences that start with "it" are not actually cleft sentences.

Thus, a "when" or "where" may be justified.

(d) Nevertheless, using that on your examinations -- as the great

teachers at this helpline have suggested -- is your safest route.

(2) I have collected these examples from my books:


(a) It is on Sundays that Bob always plays golf. (The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar)

(b) It was yesterday that my secretary sent the bill to Mr. Harding.
(Practical English Usage)

(c) It was last night that Freda phoned. (Longman English Grammar)

(d) It's in the kitchen that I study. (The Grammar Book)

(e) It was on Monday that the players objected to the delay. (The Oxford Companion to the English Language)

(f) It was in London that I met her. ( English Review Grammar)

(g) It was in a Norfolk village that I first ran across him. (A Dictionary of Modern English. The author -- the legendary Mr. H. W. Fowler!!! -- says that "where" would not be idiomatic.)

(h) It was there/ in Italy/ in my early youth/ then/ in this way that I first made his acquaintance. (Essentials of English Grammar -- written by
the legendary Professor Otto Jespersen)

(i) It was in September that I first noticed it. *** It was at 9.15 [9:15] this morning that the government proclaimed a state of emergency.

(A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, the famous grammar written by Professor Quirk and his distinguished colleagues)

(j) It was night before last that it happened. (A Grammar of Present-Day English)

Respectfully yours,


James
 

ostap77

Key Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Ukraine
Current Location
Ukraine
NOT A TEACHER


DEAR MEMBER OSTAP:


(1) I went to the BBC website and saw that sentence and also this

one: 7 May 1945 was the day (when) the Second World War ended

in Europe.

(a) The BBC is a wonderful news organization and I can only dream of

being able to speak and write as well as those BBC newsreaders.

(b) But you have to satisfy your teachers who, understandably, have

to teach the "rules."

(c) I strongly recommend that you google "BBC cleft sentences." Then

click on the 7th result ("Cleft sentences - TOPIC"). You will find that

some sentences that start with "it" are not actually cleft sentences.

Thus, a "when" or "where" may be justified.

(d) Nevertheless, using that on your examinations -- as the great

teachers at this helpline have suggested -- is your safest route.

(2) I have collected these examples from my books:


(a) It is on Sundays that Bob always plays golf. (The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar)

(b) It was yesterday that my secretary sent the bill to Mr. Harding.
(Practical English Usage)

(c) It was last night that Freda phoned. (Longman English Grammar)

(d) It's in the kitchen that I study. (The Grammar Book)

(e) It was on Monday that the players objected to the delay. (The Oxford Companion to the English Language)

(f) It was in London that I met her. ( English Review Grammar)

(g) It was in a Norfolk village that I first ran across him. (A Dictionary of Modern English. The author -- the legendary Mr. H. W. Fowler!!! -- says that "where" would not be idiomatic.)

(h) It was there/ in Italy/ in my early youth/ then/ in this way that I first made his acquaintance. (Essentials of English Grammar -- written by
the legendary Professor Otto Jespersen)

(i) It was in September that I first noticed it. *** It was at 9.15 [9:15] this morning that the government proclaimed a state of emergency.

(A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, the famous grammar written by Professor Quirk and his distinguished colleagues)

(j) It was night before last that it happened. (A Grammar of Present-Day English)

Respectfully yours,


James

Here's the link.

Learning English | BBC World Service

It shows how to choose bwetween "that,who and when". So is it when or that?
Being an American,what would be your answer from the American point of view?
 
Last edited:

Raymott

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Australia
Current Location
Australia
I'd also choose 'that' in the cases where the BBC site gives 'when'. However, note that the BBC site is not arguing that only 'when' is correct and that 'that' is wrong. The person who wrote that page uses 'when', and most of us here use 'that'. That happens.

I'd use 'when' as emsr2d2 said:
Child: When did your grandfather die?
Father: It was in 1912, when the Titanic sank.

I would also not use 'where' in this way.
* "It was in Paris where I bought this jacket." Strange to me.
"It was in Paris that I bought this jacket." Normal.

Nor would I use 'why' this way.
* "It was because of his weight why he went on a diet."
"It was because of his weight that he went on a diet."

Nor would I use 'how'.
* "It was with great effort how he lifted the rock."
"It was with great effort that he lifted the rock."

Their inappropriate use in this situation becomes progressively more obvious in the examples above, even though they
perform similar grammatical functions:
"When the Titanic sank was in 1912."
"Where I bought the jacket was in Paris."
"Why he went on a diet was because of his weight."
"How he lifted the rock was with great effort."


NB: If 'in' is omitted, 'when' is correct.
"It was [STRIKE]in[/STRIKE] 1912 when the Titanic sank.
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Here's the link.

Learning English | BBC World Service

It shows how to choose bwetween "that,who and when". So is it when or that?
Being an American,what would be your answer from the American point of view?


NOT A TEACHER


(1) I am delighted that you are still interested in this topic. It is

evident that you want to understand it in depth.

(2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

would boo me off the stage!!!

(3) That BBC article is nice, but -- quite frankly and with the

greatest respect -- some of those sentences are not really

cleft sentences.

(4) I again most respectfully and humbly ask that you google

"BBC cleft sentences" and then click on the 7th result entitled

"Cleft sentences -- TOPIC"

(a) It will explain to you the diffference between genuine

cleft sentences (which require "that") and non-cleft sentences

that may use "when" or "where."

(b) Let me give you just a taste of what you will learn (as did I) in

that thread (The following are my examples, based on what I THINK

that I learned in that link):

REAL CLEFT (when you want to emphasize something)

Tom: I think that she bought the dress in Berlin.

Sue: No way! I happen to know that it was in Paris (not in Berlin) that

she bought the dress.

NOT A CLEFT SENTENCE (just a calm answer)

Mona: Do you know where Tony bought his hat?

George: Yes, I do. He bought his hat in Paris./ Oh, I believe that

it was Paris where he bought his hat. = Paris was [the place]

where he bought his hat. (Notice that there is no preposition "in.")


Respectfully yours,


James
 

ostap77

Key Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Ukrainian
Home Country
Ukraine
Current Location
Ukraine
NOT A TEACHER


(1) I am delighted that you are still interested in this topic. It is

evident that you want to understand it in depth.

(2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

would boo me off the stage!!!

(3) That BBC article is nice, but -- quite frankly and with the

greatest respect -- some of those sentences are not really

cleft sentences.

(4) I again most respectfully and humbly ask that you google

"BBC cleft sentences" and then click on the 7th result entitled

"Cleft sentences -- TOPIC"

(a) It will explain to you the diffference between genuine

cleft sentences (which require "that") and non-cleft sentences

that may use "when" or "where."

(b) Let me give you just a taste of what you will learn (as did I) in

that thread (The following are my examples, based on what I THINK

that I learned in that link):

REAL CLEFT (when you want to emphasize something)

Tom: I think that she bought the dress in Berlin.

Sue: No way! I happen to know that it was in Paris (not in Berlin) that

she bought the dress.

NOT A CLEFT SENTENCE (just a calm answer)

Mona: Do you know where Tony bought his hat?

George: Yes, I do. He bought his hat in Paris./ Oh, I believe that

it was Paris where he bought his hat. = Paris was [the place]

where he bought his hat. (Notice that there is no preposition "in.")


Respectfully yours,


James

"(2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

would boo me off the stage!!!"

Woudl they use "only that in cleft sentences"?

"BBC cleft sentences" Can you type the direct link?
 
Last edited:

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
"(2) If I tried to give the American point of view, my fellow Americans

would boo me off the stage!!!"

Woudl they use "only that in cleft sentences"?

"BBC cleft sentences" Can you type the direct links?



NOT A TEACHER


(1) Thank you for your kind note.

(2) "Would they use only 'that' in cleft sentences?"

I do not know. I think the fact that we are having this

debate shows many native speakers use "when" and "where"

in cleft sentences and do not give it a second thought.

Of course, you have to give it a second thought, for you

are at the mercy of teachers with a red pen. Besides,

you are a very conscientious learner who wants to speak

(and write) perfect English. Every poster in this thread has

suggested that you use "that" in cleft sentences. Regarding

those sentences that are not genuine cleft sentences, well,

that is another matter. If you use "that" in those sentences,

probably no one (including your teachers) would dare say that

it was wrong.

(3) Believe me, Ostap, if I could link to that result, I would.

But I can hardly type this post, let alone link. Surely, you can

go to Google. Then simply type "BBC cleft sentences." The first page

of results will appear. Then scroll down (up? I'm so stupid!) to the

seventh result entitled "Cleft sentences -- TOPIC." Click it on and

you will find a fascinating discussion among people who know grammar

very well.

Your question has really made me think. I thank you for that. I have

learned a lot.


Respectfully yours,


James
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top