[Grammar] Have frazzled vs. had frazzled vs. frazzled

Status
Not open for further replies.

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
Hello,

The following is a part of a news, extracted from The Guardian. I'm asking what the differences among 'have frazzled', 'had frazzled' and 'frazzled' are in this text. I mean can I substitute two later ones for the last one?

Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary, a final and potentially decisive showdown between Trump and his GOP rivals Ted Cruz and John Kasich, appeared to frazzle it.

In addition, I cannot understand the gist of the text. I would appreciate it if you would explain it what it try to say.

Regards.
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
To frazzle is an infinitive in your quotation. That's required after a linking verb. You can't substitute a conjugation for the infinitive.

The text means:
  • The organization reacted to the impending California primary by becoming disorganized.
  • This primary election will be the last of many Republican (or "GOP") primaries.
  • This primary may decide who the party's nominee will be.
  • This primary is a battle between Trump and his opponents, Ted Cruz and John Kasich.

The writer packed a lot into that sentence, as you can see by my explanation of it.
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Hello,

The following is a part of a news, extracted from The Guardian. I'm asking what the differences among 'have frazzled', 'had frazzled' and 'frazzled' are in this text. I mean can I substitute two later ones for the last one?



In addition, I cannot understand the gist of the text. I would appreciate it if you would explain it what it try to say.

Regards.

I would have said: "appeared to have frazzled it."

Have you looked up frazzle? It's sort of a mash-up of fray and swizzle ​and puzzle. Are there other words you're having trouble with, like electrifying or showdown?
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I would have said: "appeared to have frazzled it."

That would be appropriate after the primary. I don't think it works while that election is still in the future.
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Say:

part of a news story
 

Tarheel

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Which organization was allegedly frazzled?
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
To frazzle is an infinitive in your quotation. That's required after a linking verb. You can't substitute a conjugation for the infinitive.

I visited the link. It was useful, many thanks. would you please provide a link for me stating after a linking verb conjugation is not allowed?

You know what, sometimes some texts are indigestible for me! This text is from that ilk.

Why the author has not written "appears"?
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
I would have said: "appeared to have frazzled it."

Have you looked up frazzle? It's sort of a mash-up of fray and swizzle ​and puzzle. Are there other words you're having trouble with, like electrifying or showdown?

I've got no problem with the words that have been used in the text. My only problem is with that grammatical structure :-?

Why "appeared that had frazzled it" is not grammatical for using in the text?
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I've got no problem with the words that have been used in the text. My only problem is with that grammatical structure.

Why isn't "appeared to have frazzled it" grammatical for use in the text?

As I've corrected it, the only problem is that it's too wordy. The original phrasing is more clear and concise and means the same thing.
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
As I've corrected it, the only problem is that it's too wordy. The original phrasing is more clear and concise and means the same thing.

Thank you for corrections but you changed my original question :-D

See the following text:

Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary, a final and potentially decisive showdown between Trump and his GOP rivals Ted Cruz and John Kasich, appeared that had frazzled it.

Is the above text grammatical?
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
See the following text:

Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary, a final and potentially decisive showdown between Trump and his GOP rivals Ted Cruz and John Kasich, appeared that had frazzled it.

Is the above text grammatical?

No. Here's the sentence you asked about in post #1:

"Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary, a final and potentially decisive showdown between Trump and his GOP rivals Ted Cruz and John Kasich, appeared to frazzle it."

When you don't understand a long, complicated sentence, try removing whatever you can. In this case you can remove a long parenthetical phrase in the middle:

"Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary appeared to frazzle it."

Can you replace to frazzle it with that had frazzled it​?
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
No. Here's the sentence you asked about in post #1:

"Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary, a final and potentially decisive showdown between Trump and his GOP rivals Ted Cruz and John Kasich, appeared to frazzle it."

When you don't understand a long, complicated sentence, try removing whatever you can. In this case you can remove a long parenthetical phrase in the middle:

"Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary appeared to frazzle it."

Can you replace to frazzle it with that had frazzled it​?

Your question presumably indicate that it is impossible to replace them with each other.

But because "appeared" is in the past tense I think I can substitute 'that had frazzled it' to 'to frazzle it'. At least if we think that we have got no more information about the text and suppose that the text has been written after June.
 

GoesStation

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Your question presumably indicate that it is impossible to replace them with each other.

But because "appeared" is in the past tense I think I can substitute 'that had frazzled it' to 'to frazzle it'. At least if we think that we have got no more information about the text and suppose that the text has been written after June.

This thread is beginning to frazzle me. :)

I'm not sure where we are in the conversation. I'll re-post and comment on the simplified sentence:

"Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary appeared to frazzle it."

You cannot replace to frazzle it with that had frazzled it. In that sentence, you have to follow appeared with an infinitive:

The primary appeared to be unwinnable.
 
Last edited:

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
This thread is beginning to frazzle me. :)

I'm not sure where we are in the conversation. I'll re-post and comment on the simplified sentence:

"Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary appeared to frazzle it."

You cannot replace to frazzle it with that had frazzled it. In that sentence, you have to follow appeared with an infinitive:

The primary appeared to be unwinnable.

I know it may be frustrating for you to answer my questions, but you are the only one who pays attention to my thread :lol:

A user already said that coz "appear" is a linking verb we must use an infinitive after it.

But visit the link below:

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/appear?q=appear

Oxford says "Appear" in the sense of a linking verb has got different structures:

appear to do somethingShe appeared to be in her late thirties.

it appears (that)… It appears that there has been a mistake.

It means that it is not necessary that always follow appear with an infinitive. we can follow it with "that". (Don't know why my last sentence has become italic
:-?)
 

Charlie Bernstein

VIP Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Thank you for corrections but you changed my original question :-D

See the following text:

Is the above text grammatical?

No. That's why I corrected it. If it were already correct, I wouldn't have changed it.

Did you see my corrections?
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
No. That's why I corrected it. If it were already correct, I wouldn't have changed it.

Did you see my corrections?

Yes, I saw it. now I understand why changed it :lol:

You said before that appear is a linking verb and an infinitive is required to come after it. But Oxford says that we can also use "that" as the following example:

it appears (that)… It appears that there has been a mistake.
 

Barb_D

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Member Type
Other
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
When you have the "dummy it" as the subject, then you can use the "that" structure.

The answer appears to have upset Jim. The answer appeared to upset Jim.
It appears that the answer has upset Jim. It appeared that the answer upset Jim.

He is known to be kind.
It is known that he is kind.

She seems nice.
It seems that she is nice.

The primary appeared to upset them.
It appeared that the primary upset them.

You can't just substitute the second type of sentence ending. You have to change the beginning of sentence too.
 

Flogger

Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2016
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
You can't just substitute the second type of sentence ending. You have to change the beginning of sentence too.

I got almost the answer of all my questions but one.

Can I say:

Instead of electrifying the organisation, California’s 7 June primary, a final and potentially decisive showdown between Trump and his GOP rivals Ted Cruz and John Kasich, appears to frazzle it

I mean can I substitute "appears" to "appeared" ?
 

Barb_D

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Member Type
Other
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Grammatically, yes, but do you understand why the present tense is not appropriate for this situation? You need the past tense because it already happened. (Apparently. The primary is in the future, but the group must have met and been frazzled by it all.)

When you are in a fun house, the mirror appears to make you look like a giant. -- This means it is a repeated, every time event.
The primary does not appear to frazzle the organization over and over and over. It needs the past tense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top