[Grammar] See

In some news article:

"Ford angers the city's gay community by declining to attend either the city's gay pride parade or the flag raising ceremony to kick off Pride week. Ford said he would be at the family cottage for the parade. His decision broke with tradition that saw the city's three previous mayors march in the parade."

What does "see" really mean there? People can "see" a mayor march in parade. But how does tradition "see" anything at all?

Source: news.yahoo.com/chronology-controversies-involving-toronto-mayor-rob-ford-162152686.html

johnchu said:

In some news article:

"Ford angers the city's gay community by declining to attend either the city's gay pride parade or the flag raising ceremony to kick off Pride week. Ford said he would be at the family cottage for the parade. His decision broke with tradition that saw the city's three previous mayors march in the parade."

What does "see" really mean there? People can "see" a mayor march in parade. But how does tradition "see" anything at all?

Source: news.yahoo.com/chronology-controversies-involving-toronto-mayor-rob-ford-162152686.html

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That's an idiomatic use of "see". Yes, it does mean that "tradition saw" in a metaphorical sense.
Another example:
"Last month saw an increase in sales figures."

According to this dictionary ( learnersdictionary.com/definition/see ) , a seemingly good definition of "see" for this usage is:

"14. to be the place or time in which (something) happens "

But tradition is neither a place nor a time. So, would this following corrected version be better:

"...His decision broke with tradition times that saw the city's three previous mayors march in the parade."

johnchu said:

So, would this following corrected version be better:

"...His decision broke with tradition times that saw the city's three previous mayors march in the parade."

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No. It's not correct. The original is.

"Tradition" is a way of doing things (method). I cannot find a definition that read something along the lines of:

"to be the method by which (something) happens"

Or, is it that "tradition" has the meaning of "time"?

johnchu said:

"Tradition" is a way of doing things (method). I cannot find a definition that read something along the lines of:

"to be the method by which (something) happens"

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I doubt if you will. Why would you want to?

Or, is it that "tradition" has the meaning of "time"?

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No.

You appear to be trying to shoehorn 'tradition' into a dictionary definition of 'see' that happens not to include all the things than can 'see' an event.

Then, I could write something like this:

"The scientific method saw scientists succeed."

johnchu said:

Then, I could write something like this:

"The scientific method saw scientists succeed."

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That's not very natural.

The Victorian age saw the invention of the hot water shower.
1989 saw the fall of the Berlin Wall.
1969 saw the first man set foot on the moon.
Last year saw the first rise in interest rates in the UK for over five years.

emsr2d2 said:

That's not very natural.

The Victorian age saw the invention of the hot water shower.
1989 saw the fall of the Berlin Wall.
1969 saw the first man set foot on the moon.
Last year saw the first rise in interest rates in the UK for over five years.

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So, the original example:

"His decision broke with tradition that saw the city's three previous mayors march in the parade."

is just as unnatural?

johnchu said:

So, the original example:

"His decision broke with tradition that saw the city's three previous mayors march in the parade."

is just as unnatural?

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It's ungrammatical. In my opinion, the word "the" should appear before "tradition".

emsr2d2, your example sentences use time periods with the verb "see", which agrees with dictionaries. But my example use (the) tradition, which is not a period of time, with "see" and this usage could not be found in dictionaries.

This tradition saw farmers planting their crops based on the phases of the moon.

Then, this would work:

"The scientific method saw scientists making great discoveries."

johnchu said:

Then, this would work:

"The scientific method saw scientists making great discoveries."

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I don't agree. A method doesn't see something. Something which lasts a long time (tradition, 1989 etc) can see something happen. Something happens during something else. Things don't happen during a method.

emsr2d2 said:

I don't agree. A method doesn't see something. Something which lasts a long time (tradition, 1989 etc) can see something happen. Something happens during something else. Things don't happen during a method.

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So, "tradition" is some sort of time period?

It's not that a tradition is a time period. A tradition is a way of doing something which is done the same way over a period of time. That's what makes it a tradition.

johnchu said:

So, "tradition" is some sort of time period?

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You are making several logical errors.
The first is thinking that everything will occur in dictionaries. It's already been pointed out that this doesn't happen.
The second is that if you can use one word unrelated to time with 'saw', then any other word unrelated to saw is just as good.
A third is that, when several native speakers insist to you that something is grammatical and natural, you won't believe it if you haven't found it in a dictionary.

Then, would these work:

"Custom saw people participate in the parade."
"Etiquette saw people greet each other in the morning."

since "custom" and "etiquette" are very similar to "tradition"?

johnchu said:

Then, would these work:

"Custom saw people participate in the parade."
"Etiquette saw people greet each other in the morning."

since "custom" and "etiquette" are very similar to "tradition"?

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Not for me.

I think you can use 'see' with some 'method' in some contexts.
"The discovery of the scientific method saw the beginning of truly useful empirical research." -although admittedly the subject is 'discovery'.
"The scientific method saw the beginning of truly useful empirical research." Some might accept this.
I think the OP is trying to make concrete something which has been explained as metaphorical. In some ways it's stylistic as well. One person might accept a personification of 'tradition' or 'method' while another will not like it.

@OP: In any case, this use of "So, ..." and "Then, ..." is wrong unless you are making a logical inference from what has already been said. Whether 'method' can see or not can't be logically inferred from whether 'tradition' does. Similarly, there's no basis to infer that tradition is some form of time period.