perfect vs simple gerund

Hello,

I need to rewrite a couple of sentences using verbs given in brackets and include a gerund, but I'm not sure if certain verbs should go with a simple or perfect gerund.

1. When the boy got a bad mark at school, his parents were very angry with him. (resent)
- ..... his parents resented his getting / having gotten a bad mark at school.

(I don't like the verb 'resent' in this example; doesn't 'got angry about his ...." sound better?)

2. When the boy cleaned the flat himself, his mother said she was very glad. (appreciate)
-.... his mother appreciated his cleaning / having cleaned the flat.

3. The boss said in a few words he had visited the British Museum. (mention)
-... he mentioned visiting / having visited the BM.

I'd use the simple form, would you?

I'd be grateful for help.
Thank you.

*** NOT A TEACHER ***

I apologise for putting in my "two cents", but I am also interested in the answers of the native speakers of this forum. Until they arrive, here is my vague attempt at an answer:

Verona_82 said:

I'd use the simple form, would you?

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In all of the sentences above, I would use the perfect "-ing forms" because, in each example, the main clause already written in past refers to further past. (I THINK that the simple forms are also acceptable in everyday speech.)

1.) His parents resented (Simple Past) his having gotten (earlier) a bad mark at school.
2.) His mother appreciated his having cleaned the flat. (His mother appreciated that he had cleaned the flat.)
3.) He mentioned having visited the BM. (I am almost certain that "mentioning" is also correct, it's probably even more common, though I may be wrong.)


I hope I am correct. We shall see!

Thank you for taking an interest in the thread ;-) I got confused because some verbs (regret, admit, deny, remember, for example) can be followed by the -ing form, but look back at the past. I'm wondering if the same holds true for the verbs in my example sentences.

Anybody, please?

Verona_82 said:

1. When the boy got a bad mark at school, his parents were very angry with him. (resent)
- ..... his parents resented his getting / having gotten a bad mark at school.

(I don't like the verb 'resent' in this example; doesn't 'got angry about his ...." sound better?)

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I agree.

I would use the simple gerund in all your sentences.

I see ~Mav~'s point, but my personal feeling is that the perfect gerund sounds rather stilted.

*** NOT A TEACHER ***

fivejedjon said:

I see ~Mav~'s point, but my personal feeling is that the perfect gerund sounds rather stilted.

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So, in other words, my answer was correct, wasn't it?
(I would lie if I said I am not after your approval. ;-) Please! You could "make my day" even with a reluctant yes. ;-) :-D )

Verona_82 said:

I need to rewrite a couple of sentences using verbs given in brackets and include a gerund...

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From this, I inferred that Verona needed the 'academic' answer. Practice books, more often than not, require the learners to give the theoretically best possible answers, regardless of whether those answers sound natural in everyday conversations or not. (Eg., "It was I to whom he was talking.", which is, I think, also deemed to be stilted, isn't it? ...and which I also use. )
Hence the reason why I dared to suggest using the perfect gerund, while shyly and vaguely mentioning that the simple gerund is more likely in everyday communication. (Admittedly, I did not have the confidence to give a definite answer. ;-) ) I would have liked to reply usefully. :-( Or, in Thackeray's style, I would have liked to have replied usefully.

~Mav~ said:

So, in other words, my answer was correct, wasn't it?

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Immensely reluctantly, and only because I am a big softie at heart, I will make your day;-). Yes

Why, thank you! :-D

Having received a notification, I came back to this thread, and I was overjoyed to read that your being right - which, as always, goes without saying - did not mean my having been* wrong. :-D (Is this - I mean, the previous - sentence correct :?: Even if you never said/phrased** a sentence like this... ;-) )


* Yes, I know that it would sound better with "being" (instead of "having been"), but my point is to emphasise the antecedence.
** On second thought, it should be "even if you would never say/phrase...", shouldn't it? :?:

PS: I have a feeling that I have started overusing the "-ing forms", be they gerund, verbal nouns or participles. :roll: (I like the phrase, "-ing form", used by the respected grammarian, Michael Swan. )

~Mav~ said:

Why, thank you! :-D

Having received a notification, I came back to this thread, and I was overjoyed to read that your being right - which, as always, goes without saying - did not mean my having been wrong. :-D (Is this - I mean, the previous - sentence correct :?: Even if you never said/phrased** a sentence like this... ;-) )
The previous sentence is indeed correct (except for the bit about it going without saying that I am always right), and in this one I do prefer 'my having been wrong' to 'my being wrong'. The emphasis on the antecedence is relevant here.

On the question of correctness, many people would use 'you' and 'me' where you have used 'your' and 'my'. I consider both alternatives acceptable.

** On second thought, it should be "even if you would never say/phrase...", shouldn't it? :?: Both are correct - though they mean different things.


PS: I have a feeling that I have started overusing the "-ing forms", be they gerund, verbal nouns or participles. :roll: (I like the phrase, "-ing form", used by the respected grammarian, Michael Swan. )
And by the not-so-respected grammarian, me.

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The term '-ing form' does avoid pointless worry about what exactly it is sometimes. What is important for me is how it's used, not what we call it.

.


Thank you very much for your instructive reply. :up:

fivejedjon said:

On the question of correctness, many people would use 'you' and 'me' where you have used 'your' and 'my'.

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I THINK it was the great H.W. Fowler who insisted on the possessive form. IF(!!) I remember correctly, he deemed the "fused participle" to be indefensible. I'm not sure, though! :-?

Thank you again! :up:

~Mav~ said:

I THINK it was the great H.W. Fowler who insisted on the possessive form. IF(!!) I remember correctly, he deemed the "fused participle" to be indefensible. I'm not sure, though!

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Fowler actually believed in the fused particle. If you can work your way through pages 124-133 of The King's English (3rd edition, 1930) He explains exactly why the fused particle should not be preceded by a possessive form and the gerund should.

At least, I think he does. I have not found this section to be one of his easier pieces to follow.

Thank you so much for helping me! (and having helped me on this particular occasion)

You've made my day too. Actually you've done it so many times I doubt I'll ever find words to say how grateful I am. And I am indeed. Thank you.

Verona_82 said:

Actually you've done it so many times I doubt I'll ever find words to say how grateful I am. And I am indeed.

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Same here. ;-)