Anglo-Saxon vs Latinate vocabulary

Status
Not open for further replies.

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I am about to try to show my students what a huge difference there is between the Anglo-Saxon words and the French words in English.

Do any of you know of a good example of a "parallel text" using the two vocabularies? I believe that Sir Walter Scott did something with this. I also believe that something was done like this with one of Churchill's speeches.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I believe that Sir Walter Scott did something with this.
You may be thinking of the passage in Ivanhoe when somebody remarks that the Saxon peasants rear the sheep (Germanic) but it is the Norman lords who eat the mutton (French); there are other examples. If that is the one you are thinking of, it's not really a parallel texts.

Sorry I can't expand - I can't find my Ivanhoe.

ps. - just found an online version. It's not too far into this: http://scott.thefreelibrary.com/Ivanhoe/1-1
 
Last edited:

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
A friend or mine offered me this by George Orwell:

"Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:
I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Here it is in modern English:
Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account."


But I don't really mean to ridicule Latinate vocabulary -- just show the dicotomy English.


My students will soon be choosing whether or not to study Spanish, French, or Latin next year. Most of them and their parents have no understanding of the depth of French (and Latin) within English. The same, of course, is not true of Spanish.







 

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
You may be thinking of the passage in Ivanhoe when somebody remarks that the Saxon peasants rear the sheep (Germanic) but it is the Norman lords who eat the mutton (French); there are other examples. If that is the one you are thinking of, it's not really a parallel texts.

Sorry I can't expand - I can't find my Ivanhoe.

ps. - just found an online version. It's not too far into this: Sir Walter Scott: Ivanhoe: CHAPTER I - Free Online Library

Yes, I think that is the one I mean. It is useful to show the class difference which can become apparent with the frequency of the use of Germanic words.
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
I am about to try to show my students what a huge difference there is between the Anglo-Saxon words and the French words in English.

Do any of you know of a good example of a "parallel text" using the two vocabularies? I believe that Sir Walter Scott did something with this. I also believe that something was done like this with one of Churchill's speeches.

The Churchill one was something I did as an attachment to a post I made reporting on a test of the Text Analyser: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/teaching-english/68275-text-analyser.html#post295684

(French wasn't my only - or main - source of long words. And I wasn't pointing the finger at big words per se - so much as the woolly thinking and bad writing habits that can be given a gloss of respectabilty by the use of fancy language.)

b
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic

ibeto

New member
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
French
Home Country
France
Current Location
France
I am about to try to show my students what a huge difference there is between the Anglo-Saxon words and the French words in English.

Do any of you know of a good example of a "parallel text" using the two vocabularies? I believe that Sir Walter Scott did something with this. I also believe that something was done like this with one of Churchill's speeches.
You will find an example in "Alice's adventures in Wonderland"
"In that case, said the Dodo solemnly, I move that the meeting adjourn, for immediate adoption of more enegetic remedies"
you can recognize french words :solennelle, ajourner,immédiat, adoption,énergétique,remèdes.
That is why the Eaglet ,said "Speak English"
hope that will help
 

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Thanks.

That helps.

This is a subject to which I may return when the heat of the moment is not so much upon me and my class.

How to make this subject interesting????????

I LOVE the subject. Back in 1966 a teacher of mine told us that "etymology is the icing on the vocabulary cake". I did not immediately believe it, but I soon did. How to share that awakening with a bunch of 14-year-olds, other than by simply testifying to the idea????
 

BookAddict

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Slovak
Home Country
Slovak Republic
Current Location
United States
- Most probably all words ending in -tion are from Latin through French
- all shorter words (get, put, set) are of Germanic origin
- longer words, usually from Latin (beautiful, extraordinary)

- Though the territory was occupied by Normans and French was spoken by the higher classes, the English element survived. Pronouns (personal, possessive, interrogative, reflexive) are Saxon (I think 'them' and 'their' is from Norse)

- declination of nouns (four cases) - Saxon
- etc.

hmmm .. it's a topic for a couple of weeks.
 

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Well, I am ready to put weeks into it.

I early realized that I am VERY prejudiced about language. I have been known to say that if I could get into a time machine and travel to any when that I wanted, I would not hesitate for a moment and travel to 1066. I would tell Harold the Saxon to not look up (in order to avoid that arrow in the eye).

German, I feel, is the very heart and soul of the English language. What the Normans brought in was, for the most part, just extra. Now, regarding science and law, I will admit that the Saxon speech may have been inadequate, but what does that matter when it comes to heart, soul, and poetry?
 

konungursvia

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
Well, I am ready to put weeks into it.

I early realized that I am VERY prejudiced about language. I have been known to say that if I could get into a time machine and travel to any when that I wanted, I would not hesitate for a moment and travel to 1066. I would tell Harold the Saxon to not look up (in order to avoid that arrow in the eye).

German, I feel, is the very heart and soul of the English language. What the Normans brought in was, for the most part, just extra. Now, regarding science and law, I will admit that the Saxon speech may have been inadequate, but what does that matter when it comes to heart, soul, and poetry?

Wow, an interesting opinion, and one I will attempt to disagree with politely.

German was not the language spoken in England before 1066, it was Old English, or more precisely Intermediate Saxon, a dialect with closer relations to Old Norse than German, which is so similar to Icelandic that Oxford and Cambridge English majors (used to?) have to study that language as part of their study of English. Here is a bit of Beowulf:

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
5 monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
10 ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
geong in geardum, þone god sende
folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat
15 þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),
Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.
20 Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal
25 in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile
felahror feran on frean wære.
Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe,
swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd,
30 þenden wordum weold wine Scyldinga;
leof landfruma lange ahte.
þær æt hyðe stod hringedstefna,
isig ond utfus, æþelinges fær.
Aledon þa leofne þeoden,
35 beaga bryttan, on bearm scipes,
mærne be mæste. þær wæs madma fela
of feorwegum, frætwa, gelæded;
ne hyrde ic cymlicor ceol gegyrwan
hildewæpnum ond heaðowædum,
40 billum ond byrnum; him on bearme læg
madma mænigo, þa him mid scoldon
on flodes æht feor gewitan.
Nalæs hi hine læssan lacum teodan,
þeodgestreonum, þon þa dydon
45 þe hine æt frumsceafte forð onsendon
ænne ofer yðe umborwesende.
þa gyt hie him asetton segen geldenne
heah ofer heafod, leton holm beran,
geafon on garsecg; him wæs geomor sefa,
50 murnende mod. Men ne cunnon
secgan to soðe, selerædende,
hæleð under heofenum, hwa þæm hlæste onfeng.
ða wæs on burgum Beowulf Scyldinga,
leof leodcyning, longe þrage
55 folcum gefræge (fæder ellor hwearf,
aldor of earde), oþþæt him eft onwoc
heah Healfdene; heold þenden lifde,
gamol ond guðreouw, glæde Scyldingas.
ðæm feower bearn forð gerimed
60 in worold wocun, weoroda ræswan,
Heorogar ond Hroðgar ond Halga til;
hyrde ic þæt wæs Onelan cwen,
Heaðoscilfingas healsgebedda.
þa wæs Hroðgare heresped gyfen,
65 wiges weorðmynd, þæt him his winemagas
georne hyrdon, oðð þæt seo geogoð geweox,
magodriht micel. Him on mod bearn
þæt healreced hatan wolde,
medoærn micel, men gewyrcean
70 þonne yldo bearn æfre gefrunon,
ond þær on innan eall gedælan
geongum ond ealdum, swylc him god sealde,
buton folcscare ond feorum gumena.
ða ic wide gefrægn weorc gebannan
75 manigre mægþe geond þisne middangeard,
folcstede frætwan. Him on fyrste gelomp,
ædre mid yldum, þæt hit wearð ealgearo,
healærna mæst; scop him Heort naman
se þe his wordes geweald wide hæfde.
80 He beot ne aleh, beagas dælde,
sinc æt symle. Sele hlifade,
heah ond horngeap, heaðowylma bad,
laðan liges; ne wæs hit lenge þa gen
þæt se ecghete aþumsweorum
85 æfter wælniðe wæcnan scolde.
ða se ellengæst earfoðlice
þrage geþolode, se þe in þystrum bad,
þæt he dogora gehwam dream gehyrde
hludne in healle; þær wæs hearpan sweg,
90 swutol sang scopes. Sægde se þe cuþe
frumsceaft fira feorran reccan,
cwæð þæt se ælmihtiga eorðan worhte,
wlitebeorhtne wang, swa wæter bebugeð,
gesette sigehreþig sunnan ond monan
95 leoman to leohte landbuendum
ond gefrætwade foldan sceatas
leomum ond leafum, lif eac gesceop
cynna gehwylcum þara ðe cwice hwyrfaþ.
Swa ða drihtguman dreamum lifdon
100 eadiglice, oððæt an ongan
fyrene fremman feond on helle.
Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold,
fen ond fæsten; fifelcynnes eard.

I'd be interested in hearing which characteristics of this language you find are the heart and soul of English. I myself love the bastard duality of our language (and as a Viking myself, I am predisposed to look favourably on its Nordic heritage). In my view, it is the very lack of purity which makes English so flexible and adaptable. There is nothing like the Académie française in the English-speaking world, nor could there ever be.

That's why we are utterly shameless in innovating, and do it better than most other languages, who borrow our words at every generation (think of download, boot, etc.).

Our language is so organic precisely because we have multiple forms of logic with which to manipulate it. We can be poetically rustic as in the quote above from the King James Bible, and yet we can fly as high into the clouds of abstraction as any Latin language.

After the Invasion, the Normans quite simply brought modern civilisation to Britain, along with its legal, scientific and artistic vocabulary. While Beowulf spoke of blood, guts, love and fear, Middle English brought us a much higher degree of wit. You'll notice that already, in Chaucer, about half the words are Norman French, and are pronounced as such.

Today I find that the writers with the greatest sensitivity to the nuances of English always betray a subtle and intimate knowledge of the French usages associated with our words. You can tell by context. But I think I'm getting too long for one page here.

One more rib-poke for you, Harald the Saxon married a Viking princess and his descendants learnt Danish from her. So it was Vikings coté cour, and Vikings coté jardin, for England's throne.
 
Last edited:

konungursvia

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
And here is a bit of Chaucer, my favourite English author:

Whan that the Knyght had thus his tale ytoold,
In al the route ne was ther yong ne oold
That he ne seyde it was a noble storie,
And worthy for to drawen to memorie;
5 And namely the gentils everichon.
Oure Hooste lough, and swoor, "So moot I gon,
This gooth aright; unbokeled is the male,
Lat se now who shal telle another tale,
For trewely the game is wel bigonne.
10 Now telleth on, sir Monk, if that ye konne
Somwhat to quite with the Knyghtes tale."
The Millere that for dronken was al pale,
So that unnethe upon his hors he sat,
He nolde avalen neither hood ne hat,
15 Ne abyde no man for his curteisie,
But in Pilates voys he gan to crie,
And swoor, "By armes and by blood and bones,
I kan a noble tale for the nones,
With which I wol now quite the Knyghtes tale."
20 Oure Hooste saugh that he was dronke of ale,
And seyde, "Abyd, Robyn, my leeve brother,
Som bettre man shal telle us first another,
Abyd, and lat us werken thriftily."
"By Goddes soule," quod he, "that wol nat I,
25 For I wol speke, or elles go my wey."
Oure Hoost answerde, "Tel on, a devel wey!
Thou art a fool, thy wit is overcome!
"Now herkneth," quod the Miller, "alle and some,
But first I make a protestacioun
30 That I am dronke, I knowe it by my soun;
And therfore, if that I mysspeke or seye,
Wyte it the ale of Southwerk I you preye.
For I wol telle a legende and a lyf
Bothe of a carpenter and of his wyf,
35 How that a clerk hath set the wrightes cappe."
The Reve answerde and seyde, "Stynt thy clappe,
Lat be thy lewed dronken harlotrye,
It is a synne and eek a greet folye
To apeyren any man or hym defame,
40 And eek to bryngen wyves in swich fame;
Thou mayst ynogh of othere thynges seyn."
This dronke Millere spak ful soone ageyn,
And seyde, "Leve brother Osewold,
Who hath no wyf, he is no cokewold.
45 But I sey nat therfore that thou art oon,
Ther been ful goode wyves many oon,
And evere a thousand goode ayeyns oon badde;
That knowestow wel thyself, but if thou madde.
Why artow angry with my tale now?
50 I have a wyf, pardee, as wel as thow,
Yet nolde I for the oxen in my plogh
Take upon me moore than ynogh,
As demen of myself that I were oon;
I wol bileve wel, that I am noon.
55 An housbonde shal nat been inquisityf
Of Goddes pryvetee, nor of his wyf.
So he may fynde Goddes foysoun there,
Of the remenant nedeth nat enquere."
What sholde I moore seyn, but this Millere
60 He nolde his wordes for no man forbere,
But tolde his cherles tale in his manere;
Me thynketh that I shal reherce it heere.
And therfore every gentil wight I preye,
For Goddes love, demeth nat that I seye
65 Of yvel entente, but that I moot reherce
Hir tales alle, be they bettre or werse,
Or elles falsen som of my mateere.
And therfore who-so list it nat yheere,
Turne over the leef, and chese another tale;
70 For he shal fynde ynowe, grete and smale,
Of storial thyng that toucheth gentillesse,
And eek moralitee, and hoolynesse.
Blameth nat me if that ye chese amys;
The Millere is a cherl, ye knowe wel this,
75 So was the Reve, and othere manye mo,
And harlotrie they tolden bothe two.
Avyseth yow, and put me out of blame,
And eek men shal nat maken ernest of game.

You will notice that our language has maintained much of Chaucer's metric flexibilty. This is also why I love Byron, who seamlessly mixes the two oil-and-water heritages:

His mother was a learned lady, famed
For every branch of every science known
In every Christian language ever named,
With virtues equall'd by her wit alone,
She made the cleverest people quite ashamed,
And even the good with inward envy groan,
Finding themselves so very much exceeded
In their own way by all the things that she did.

Her memory was a mine: she knew by heart
All Calderon and greater part of Lope,
So that if any actor miss'd his part
She could have served him for the prompter's copy;
For her Feinagle's were an useless art,
And he himself obliged to shut up shop—he
Could never make a memory so fine as
That which adorn'd the brain of Donna Inez.

Lovely, isn't it?
 

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Well, I will have to take more time read your whole replies, but I will immediately admit that I should not have said "German" but rather "Germanic", in which case Old Norse would have fallen under the same umbrella -- heart and soul of English. (I believe I now have a mixed metaphor.)

I guess I just don't appreciate the subtleties offered to English by the Romance languages.

It was when I first studied modern German, after having studied French and Latin, that I was so struck by the Germanic core of English.

I accept that my feeling is a prejudice. I have often told kids that I would rather die for freedom than for liberty.
 

konungursvia

VIP Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
Well, I will have to take more time read your whole replies, but I will immediately admit that I should not have said "German" but rather "Germanic", in which case Old Norse would have fallen under the same umbrella -- heart and soul of English. (I believe I now have a mixed metaphor.)

I guess I just don't appreciate the subtleties offered to English by the Romance languages.

It was when I first studied modern German, after having studied French and Latin, that I was so struck by the Germanic core of English.

I accept that my feeling is a prejudice. I have often told kids that I would rather die for freedom than for liberty.

Fair enough, and I was in part being provocative. I also find our Anglo-
Saxon and Germanic heritage absolutely lovely (our mother) but also cherish our Latin and French roots (a sort of genius stepfather). Loving them together, in my view, gives the greatest appreciation of what English really is.
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
Or maybe mothers and stepfathers. ;-)
 

Frank Antonson

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Fair enough, and I was in part being provocative. I also find our Anglo-
Saxon and Germanic heritage absolutely lovely (our mother) but also cherish our Latin and French roots (a sort of genius stepfather). Loving them together, in my view, gives the greatest appreciation of what English really is.

Yes, I cannot deny that. It is just that I think the Germanic component is often under-rated. In my view that Romance language component of English has a sort of "arrogance of power".

What I also REALLY like are those words that have come to English from obscure languages because of the "Age of Empires" e.g. raccoon, viranda, chocolate, tomato, potato, etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top