south=noon, north=midnight (?)

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GeneD

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In some, at least, countries of the Northern Hemisphere, there is an association south=noon and north=midnight. In Slavic languages, the words for north and south are (or in some were) midnight and noon (in Russian, полночь and полдень). In Italian there is, obviously, the same association, since they named their southern part of the country Mezzogiorno (meaning noon). What about English? Is there anything similar in your language?
 
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GoesStation

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SoothingDave

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It seems backwards to me. The sun is directly above at noon. I would expect noon to be north (i.e. up).
 

Charlie Bernstein

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We do east = start of day and west = end of day.

That's about it.
 

GeneD

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It seems backwards to me. The sun is directly above at noon. I would expect noon to be north (i.e. up).
I don't know your current location; if you are in Florida, then maybe because you are pretty close to the Tropic of Cancer the sun is (or seems very much so) right above you. But the higher the latitude the more obvious to the observer that the sun in the noon time is slightly on the south, not right above you. (I'm speaking about the Northern Hemisphere, of course.)
 

GeneD

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We do east = start of day and west = end of day.

That's about it.

Thanks, Charlie. Could you please give an example sentence to let me see how you use it or used it in the past? In Russian, for instance, we see or hear such usage nowadays only in folklore.

I became interested in this sort of thing because I'm reading the Kalevala, and the Russian translator chose the old Russian words for north and south - midnight and noon. That's pretty interesting because it seems very natural to associate these words in the north, at least, where the story takes place. Just like west and east are used in English, if I understand you correctly, midnight and noon also can be used very naturally in the higher latitudes. Inside the polar circle, for example, in summer, one can see the sun even at midnight and it'll be in the north. At the same time, calling the north midnight can be very strange if you live in the middle latitudes where there is no sun at midnight at all even in summer. And even in this case using noon for south remains pretty natural since they use it in Italy. Are you sure there is no such usage of noon in English? Maybe in folk songs or some old scriptures?
 

Charlie Bernstein

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Thanks, Charlie. Could you please give an example sentence to let me see how you use it or used it in the past? In Russian, for instance, we see or hear such usage nowadays only in folklore.

I became interested in this sort of thing because I'm reading the Kalevala, and the Russian translator chose the old Russian words for north and south - midnight and noon. That's pretty interesting because it seems very natural to associate these words in the north, at least, where the story takes place. Just like west and east are used in English, if I understand you correctly, midnight and noon also can be used very naturally in the higher latitudes. Inside the polar circle, for example, in summer, one can see the sun even at midnight and it'll be in the north. At the same time, calling the north midnight can be very strange if you live in the middle latitudes where there is no sun at midnight at all even in summer. And even in this case using noon for south remains pretty natural since they use it in Italy. Are you sure there is no such usage of noon in English? Maybe in folk songs or some old scriptures?

Judging from where the sun is rising, that way must be east.

The sun is going down in front of us, so I guess we're heading west.


I did not mean to imply that east and west are synonyms for sunrise and sunset. I just meant that that's what they're associated with. We do not associate noon and midnight with north or south.

Sometimes we use times to indicate direction:

- A knob can be turned to a time of day: "Turn the dial to three o'oclock" means turn it so the pointer points right.

- The location of an object can be described with a time of day: "Look out! There's a fighter at twelve o'clock!" means it's straight ahead. (Example: Twelve O'Clock High.)

But calling north midnight would make no sense whatsoever, no matter what. In English, thet are not synonyms.

And yes, I'm also absolutely positive that noon never means south in English. Those aren't synonyms, either. Not in folk songs, not in scripture, not in ordinary conversation. No one would have any idea what you're talking about.
 
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Colee

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English is composed from mostly Germanic languages so I believe they would have more similarities. Although we all share the Latin language (most of us) so some words are generated from there.
 
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GeneD

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Judging from where the sun is rising, that way must be east.

The sun is going down in front of us, so I guess we're heading west.
I thought you meant that you could say "heading sunset". :) Like in Polish where the west is zachód (sunset) and the east
wschód (sunrise).

Calling north midnight makes no sense, no matter wat.
In the previous post, I explained that inside the polar circle the sun is seen at night in summer and the sun is in the north at midnight. Why are you saying there is no sense in naming the north so "no matter what"? I've been to the Kola Peninsula and seen the midnight sun, and I can tell you there is nothing exotic about the usage of "midnight" in the sense of "north" when you see it with your own eyes. :) Or did you mean that it makes no sense in English?

Yes, I'm absolutely positive that noon never means south in English. Those aren't synonyms, either. Not in folk songs, not in scripture, not in ordinary conversation. No one would have any idea what you're talking about.
Thanks.
 
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I don't know your current location; if you are in Florida, then maybe because you are pretty close to the Tropic of Cancer the sun is (or seems very much so) right above you. But the higher the latitude the more obvious to the observer that the sun in the noon time is slightly on the south, not right above you. (I'm speaking about the Northern Hemisphere, of course.)

"Directly above" was a poor choice of words. The sun is at its highest point of the day at noon (more or less, give or take your exact spot in relation to the time zone).
 

GeneD

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"Directly above" was a poor choice of words. The sun is at its highest point of the day at noon (more or less, give or take your exact spot in relation to the time zone).
In relation to the latitude, you mean? The time zone is related to the longitude and won't change the angle the sun lights the Earth. I mean the sun at noon will be less "overhead" in the northern latitudes, but will be the same in all time zones of the same latitude.
 
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GeneD

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I've looked up the words we are discussing in an etymology dictionary, and it turns out the directions in English connected with the sun too.
East is from Proto-Germanic *aust- "east," literally "toward the sunrise".
West
is probably from PIE (Proto-Indo-European?) *wes-, reduced form of *wes-pero- "evening, night" (source also of Greek hesperos, Latin vesper "evening, west...).
South is perhaps from Proto-Germanic *sunthaz, perhaps literally "sun-side". Sun-side seems to be connected to the noon indirectly, because the sun points directly at the south at noon. Again perhaps...
North might be ultimately from PIE *ner- (1) "left," also "below" (source also of Sanskrit narakah "hell," Greek neretos "deeper, lower down," enerthen "from beneath," Oscan-Umbrian nertrak "left"), as north is to the left when one faces the rising sun. The same notion apparently underlies Old Irish tuath "left; northern;" Arabic shamal "left hand; north.

And Collee's mentioning Latin reminded me about the Latin word "meridianus" which means "of midday, of noon, southerly, to the south". So there is a word in English (though borrowed) that connects notions south and noon - meridian. It's not exactly what I was trying to find, but half a loaf is better than no bread. :)
 

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I thought you meant that you could say "heading sunset". :) Like in Polish where the west is zachód (sunset) and the east
wschód (sunrise).

No, I was not saying they were synomyms. (See #7.)

In the previous post, I explained that inside the polar circle the sun is seen at night in summer and the sun is in the north at midnight. Why are you saying there is no sense in naming the north so "no matter what"?

Other languages can call things whatever they want. But we don't call it that in English. In English it does't make sense. So I said so.


I've been to the Kola Peninsula and seen the midnight sun, and I can tell you there is nothing exotic about the usage of "midnight" in the sense of "north" when you see it with your own eyes. :) Or did you mean that it makes no sense in English?

You're asking me to repeat myself. No matter how many times you ask, it makes no sense in English. In English, midnight is the hour between 11 p.m. and 1 a.m. Midnight does not mean north in English. Not in conversation. Not in folk lore. Not in scripture. Nowhere.

Exotic? Exotic has nothing to do with it. It's just not English!



Thanks.
You're welcome.
 

GeneD

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Or did you mean that it makes no sense in English?
Did you read this sentence in the post you quoted? You could have just said 'yes'; there wasn't any need to repeat anything.
 
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Tdol

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but half a loaf is better than no bread. :)

It is, however, a half loaf that no English speaker has any idea of. I do know something about the names behind the days of the week, but nothing about the south being noon. ;-)
 

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In relation to the latitude, you mean? The time zone is related to the longitude and won't change the angle the sun lights the Earth. I mean the sun at noon will be less "overhead" in the northern latitudes, but will be the same in all time zones of the same latitude.

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. In between there is a path the sun takes. At some point it is at its highest. That point varies with longitude.

"Local solar noon" varies with one's position east-to-west. It's why cities had different times before the railroads standardized.

https://earthsky.org/earth/its-summer-whats-noon-to-you
 

GeneD

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The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. In between there is a path the sun takes. At some point it is at its highest. That point varies with longitude.
I don't quite understand what point exactly are you talking about. If you want to say that noon will be in Mexico and Mumbai at different time on your watch, then yes, I agree. If you mean that the sun in Mexico and Saint Petersburg at their noons will be at the same angle to those who live in those cities, then I disagree, of course.

I think we just look at the thing we are discussing from different angles. I understand the point you made in post #3. You compared the approximate situation of the sun at noon with a map, where the north is up. My point was different. I was talking about the ability to see the midnight sun. You will see it neither in Mexico nor Mumbai, right? But in Murmansk, which is inside the arctic circle, you will see it surely. It depends on the latitude, not longitude, whether you can or can't see the sun at midnight and with its help know where the north is.

Do we understand each other? :)
 

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It is, however, a half loaf that no English speaker has any idea of. I do know something about the names behind the days of the week, but nothing about the south being noon. ;-)
I learned about the association in Romance languages in this thread. I'm grateful for the knowledge, too, because I'll no longer struggle to remember whether méridionale is north or south in French.
 

GeneD

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It is, however, a half loaf that no English speaker has any idea of.
Except those who write etymology dictionaries (and who are mostly the only readers of what they wrote) and this crazy Russian on UsingEnglish? :-D
 

GeneD

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They are useful if you want to know where the word came from. They are normally useless for telling us how the word is used today.
Yes, I know. But, as I said in post #6 (or, at least, tried to say), I'm interested not only in the modern usage of the words we are talking about. I'd be happy to know whether there were such associations (and hence words) in the past, too. It's not so dead important to me to know this. I'm just reading a story that was written by people who lived long before the compass was invented. They named the directions the way that helped them to orient themselves.

The reason why I got curious about the possible connection between the notions north and midnight is because the Kalevala I'm reading about is a real place in the north very close to the arctic circle. It amazed me that the Russian translator chose the Russian word "полночь" (midnight) to indicate the north. "Why did he do it?", I thought. Maybe because in the Karelian language there is such a word? And why we, Russians, have this word in our language? Maybe because many of our ancestors lived somewhere close to the Arctic? Or maybe because it's just some peculiar logic that led them to the naming the north this way (if the south is "полдень" (noon), then the north is "полночь" (midnight))? Is or was there anything similar in other European languages? And so on and on...:)

As to the connection between south and midday, I'm sure your ancestors knew it. (They just couldn't be unaware of this way of orientation in the time when there were no compasses.) Maybe there were even words that illustrate this connection. But since there is nothing left even in your folklore, then I'll, personally, be happy with what's written in an etymology dictionary.
 
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