Can you decode this message?

TaiwanPofLee · May 12, 2015

pli;z let mi; n0 bifo;r yu; k^m t` taiwa;n
ai wil bi; yur h0st

Note: You might want to consult the following web page by a very good and devoted British author of English courses and textbooks http://www.fonetiks.org/ipa.html

MikeNewYork · May 12, 2015

I know nothing about phonemic symbols and these decode exercises are extremely simple. Doesn't that tend to defeat your arguments?

TaiwanPofLee · May 12, 2015

MikeNewYork said:
I know nothing about phonemic symbols and these decode exercises are extremely simple. Doesn't that tend to defeat your arguments?

Mr. Tim Bowyer's howjsay.com is a talking dictionary of English pronunciation, and he needed phonetic transcriptions during recording sessions.
All popular and successful English dictionaries such as Oxford, Cambridge, Collins, Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Longman use phonetic symbols.
I post decoding puzzles to show that phonetic symbols are easy to learn and a great aid to teaching and learning of English pronunciation.
I propose teaching of English phonemic symbols to primary school students.

Skrej · May 12, 2015

TaiwanPofLee said:
Mr. Tim Bowyer's howjsay.com is a talking dictionary of English pronunciation, and he needed phonetic transcriptions during recording sessions.
All popular and successful English dictionaries such as Oxford, Cambridge, Collins, Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Longman use phonetic symbols.
I post decoding puzzles to show that phonetic symbols are easy to learn and a great aid to teaching and learning of English pronunciation.
I propose teaching of English phonemic symbols to primary school students.

The problem with teaching phonemic symbols is selecting which system to teach. Every dictionary uses slightly different systems and notations, so if you invest the time covering it with students, there's always going to be cases where what they memorized isn't what they'll encounter when they go to use a dictionary.

Yes there are several standard systems - IPA comes to mind of course - but there's no guarantee of consistency across texts. While you can control this in the classroom by careful selection of texts, what happens when they switch texts or encounter an unfamiliar system outside the class?

Don't get me wrong - I agree it's a useful idea, and I spend some time covering how to use a dictionary with my classes, including how to use the pronunciation guide. But rather than teaching a specific system, I teach how to locate and use the pronunciation guide located with a given dictionary, explaining that the systems vary, and they'll have to reference the guide that comes with the dictionary.

TaiwanPofLee · May 13, 2015

Hi Skrej! You are a very good teacher.

Taiwan and China each have a unified phonetic system for their Mandarin Chinese pronunciation.
Taiwan and China teach their students Zhuyin and Pinyin respectively as soon as they begin their primary school education.
I think English phonemic/phonetic symbols should be taught to native English students to help them ascertain the standard pronunciation of an English word, especially a newly encountered one. There are always practical ways to cope with the problem of no unified phonetic system.

There are popular English dictionaries such as Oxford, Cambridge, Collins, Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Longman that use phonetic symbols.

Charlie Bernstein · May 13, 2015

TaiwanPofLee said:
pli;z let mi; n0 bifo;r yu; k^m t` taiwa;n
ai wil bi; yur h0st

Note: You might want to consult the following web page by a very good and devoted British author of English courses and textbooks http://www.fonetiks.org/ipa.html

It's readable, no need to translate. Thank you! If I ever plan a trip to Taiwan, I'll be sure to let you know!

I hope you're starting to realize that literate native English speakers can read without using references.
Keep in mind that almost all of us get at least twelve years of formal English instruction. That's more than a lot of ESL students get!

TaiwanPofLee · May 14, 2015

Charlie Bernstein said:
It's readable, no need to translate. Thank you! If I ever plan a trip to Taiwan, I'll be sure to let you know!

I hope you're starting to realize that literate native English speakers can read without using references.
Keep in mind that almost all of us get at least twelve years of formal English instruction. That's more than a lot of ESL students get!

1. mI kwn`swrn iz i`fiSwnsE in tEHiN and lwrniN wv iNgliS, bOth fwr nAtiv
and E.S.L stUdwnts.
2. let mE nO bi`fawr U kum tw tI`won. wE wil tawk w`bowt iNgliS prwnunSi`ASwn, and I wil trEt U tw tI`won mU`zEwmz, in`klXdiN THw naSwnl palis mU`zEwm.

Charlie Bernstein · May 14, 2015

10-Q!

TaiwanPofLee · May 14, 2015

Charlie Bernstein said:
10-Q!

You're welcome. Please do come.

Tdol · May 14, 2015

tEHiN

This one may work with Chinese speakers, but if they try to use this system to communicate internationally, they will find that many don't get the H.

MikeNewYork · May 14, 2015

I can't imagine anyone using that system to communicate with anybody.

TaiwanPofLee · May 15, 2015

To Tdol (#10) & MikeNewYork (#11):

Phonetic symbols are used to ascertain the standard pronunciations, not for communication.

All popular English dictionaries such as Oxford, Cambridge, Collins, Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Longman use phonetic symbols.

MikeNewYork · May 15, 2015

Yes, but the phonetic symbols are not the same. It is an inexact science, at best.

TaiwanPofLee · May 15, 2015

MikeNewYork said:
Yes, but the phonetic symbols are not the same. It is an inexact science, at best.

I won't go so far as to advocate a universal language, yet I do advocate standard pronunciation and a unified phonetic system for English pronunciation. It can be any phonetic system. For now I use my own system as follows:
Vowels:
[A], [a]
[E], [e]
,
[O], [o], [>], [>i], [@] ([aw], [oy], [ow])
, , [yx], [yw]
[X], [x]
[w], [wr]
Consonants:
[d] [v] [g] [j] [z] [Z] [TH] [l] [m] [n] [N] [r] [w] [y]
[p] [t] [f] [k] [H] [h] ~~[th]~~

MikeNewYork · May 15, 2015

Just what we needed -- another system.

Tdol · May 15, 2015

The IPA does offer a universal system. It is true that many dictionaries use their own systems, but these are broadly similar. However, there are some symbols used in your system that I have no idea of- I assume that [TH] and [th] represent the voiced/unvoiced forms, but which is which? And what is [yx]? I think teaching people a system makes sense, but just like the endless adding of terminology - we have the present continuous, progressive, near durative, etc, for the same form - adding a new system is likely to add a new layer of complexity unless it is widely adopted. If it worksa with your students, it's fine, with the caveat that if they try to use it with international speakers, they may have difficulties.

TaiwanPofLee · May 15, 2015

To Tdol (#16):

My own system is used for my beginning students of English immediately after they learn the English alphabet. It covers all contemporary American English phonemes. I provide my students with an English vocabulary list of 5,000 words with my phonetic symbols.

Phonetic symbols are meant for ascertaining the standard pronunciations of words, not for communication. My students find no difficulty when they need to consult an English dictionary which uses a different phonetic system.

The International Phonetic Alphabet is based on the Latin alphabet; it is more complicated, confusing and strange than my system. All my symbols can easily be typed out on the computer.

N Senbei · May 16, 2015

TaiwanPofLee said:
I won't go so far as to advocate a universal language, yet I do advocate standard pronunciation and a unified phonetic system for English pronunciation. It can be any phonetic system. For now I use my own system as follows:
Vowels:
[A], [a]
[E], [e]
,
[O], [o], [>], [>i], [@] ([aw], [oy], [ow])
, , [yx], [yw]
[X], [x]
[w], [wr]
Consonants:
[d] [v] [g] [j] [z] [Z] [TH] [l] [m] [n] [N] [r] [w] [y]
[p] [t] [f] [k] [H] [h] ~~[th]~~

I think I have deciphered the Enigma codes.

Vowels:
[A ( eɪ )] , [a (æ)]
[E ( i: )], [e]
[I ( aɪ )] , [i (ɪ)]
[O ( oʊ )] , [o (ɑ)], [> /aw (ɔ],[>i/oy (ɔɪ)], [@/ ow (aʊ)]
[U (ju ], [u (ʌ)], [yx ( jʊ)], [yw (jə)]
[X (u ], [x (ʊ)]
[w (ə)], [wr (ər)]

Consonants:
[d] [v] [g] [j (dʒ) ] [z] [Z (ʒ) ] [TH (ð)] [l] [m] [n ] [N (ŋ)] [r] [w] [y (j)]
[p] [t] [f] [k] [H (tʃ) ] [h] ~~[S (ʃ)] [th (θ)]~~

N Senbei · May 17, 2015

TaiwanPofLee said:
My own system is used for my beginning students of English immediately after they learn the English alphabet. It covers all contemporary American English phonemes. I provide my students with an English vocabulary list of 5,000 words with my phonetic symbols.

NOT A TEACHER

I’m sorry if this sounds like unsolicited advice, but I think you need to refine your “system” before you teach it to your students because using the same symbol to represent two completely different phonemes (/w/ and /w/) is a definite no-no in phonemic transcription.

TaiwanPofLee · May 17, 2015

Tdol said:
This one may work with Chinese speakers, but if they try to use this system to communicate internationally, they will find that many don't get the H.

Phonetic symbols are meant as an aid for ascertaining the standard pronunciations of words, not for communication.

And, it's sensible that [H] stands for [tʃ] since the name of letter H is pronounced [ eɪ tʃ], isn't it?

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