it has rained four times since October.

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Hi,

In "it has rained four times since October," when did the rain begin?

In "It hasn't rained since February," when did the most recent rain occur?

In "I haven't eaten since March 5," when did the speaker last eat?

I'd appreciate your help.
 

jutfrank

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I'm labelling your questions 1,2,3.

1) We don't know from this. We just know that the timeframe in which raining four times has happened began at a point in time described as 'October'.

2) At a conceived point in time described as 'February'. This would be taken to mean some time between the beginning and end of February.

3) At a conceived point in time described as 'March 5'. This would be taken to mean some time between the beginning and end of March 5.
 
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For (1), could it be that raining four times occurred after October?
 

emsr2d2

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For (1), could it be that raining four times occurred after October?

It could mean that. It's a very imprecise sentence. We don't know if the speaker means "since the start of October" or "since the end of October".

It could have rained on October 1, 2, 3 and 4 and not since. It could have rained on November 3, November 8, March 19 and yesterday. Who knows?!
 
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It could mean that. It's a very imprecise sentence. We don't know if the speaker means "since the start of October" or "since the end of October".

It could have rained on October 1, 2, 3 and 4 and not since. It could have rained on November 3, November 8, March 19 and yesterday. Who knows?!

Is "March 19" compatible with either the start or end of October?
 
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If "since October" could mean either "since the start of October" or "since the end of October," I'd expect the time frame to fall between October 1 and December 31. March 19 falls outside that range.
 

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What does December 31 have to do with anything?
 

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December 31 is the end of the year, and therefore the (default) limit of the range.

That's irrelevant. Today is June 22nd, 2019. Something that happened on March 19th, 2019 happened later than October which, given this context, means October, 2018.
 
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There's no textual context that requires "October" to refer to October of last year.
But you have mentioned something worth considering: given the right context, "since October" could refer to October of this year or that of last year.
 

Phaedrus

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There's no textual context that requires "October" to refer to October of last year.

There is no other October to which "October" could refer in "It has rained four times since October" if we take the time of speech to be now.

If it were supposed to refer to an October prior to last October, there would be a further specification: "since October before last," "since October 1989."

But you have mentioned something worth considering: given the right context, "since October" could refer to October of this year or that of last year.

"Since"-phrases do not refer to the future. October 2019 is in the future. At this moment, "since October" can only refer to last October, i.e., to October 2018.
 
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In "It has been raining since February," is "since February" ambiguous between "since the start of February" and "since the end of February" as well? Could it describe a scenario where the rain began in March?
 
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There is no other October to which "October" could refer in "It has rained four times since October" if we take the time of speech to be now.

If it were supposed to refer to an October prior to last October, there would be a further specification: "since October before last," "since October 1989."



"Since"-phrases do not refer to the future. October 2019 is in the future. At this moment, "since October" can only refer to last October, i.e., to October 2018.

Right, but the time of quoting is not necessarily the time of speech / writing.
 

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If you're not talking about a sentence you would like to say right now, you will need to make that clear in your post.

As it stands, saying "It hasn't rained since October" means "There has been no rain since [some point in] October 2018".
 
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The Collins English Dictionary has the following example and definition:


during or throughout the period of time after:


Since May it has only rained once.


Now I'm confused. There seems to be some difference between "it has rained four times since October" and "Since May it has only rained once" concerning how to determine when the rain first occurred. According to Collins, the rain had to first occur after May, which runs counter to what I have learned from this thread.
 
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jutfrank

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Right, but the time of quoting is not necessarily the time of speech / writing.

That's irrelevant. What's the point of analysing a sentence from the perspective of the time of quoting? You analyse it from the moment of utterance.

If I say last October, you have to interpret what this means to me, not what it means to you.

Now I'm confused. There seems to be some difference between "it has rained four times since October" and "Since May it has only rained once" concerning how to determine when the rain first occurred.

Let me make this clear: The word since sets only the beginning point of the timeframe within which the events happen. It does not tell you when the events happen. The first event could occur either at, or some time after, that beginning point of the timeframe.

According to Collins, the rain had to first occur after May, which runs counter to what I have learned from this thread.

What runs counter exactly? With the word after, the dictionary means exactly what I'm saying here—that the timeframe in question begins at that point.


Look at this short dialogue:

A: How many cigarettes have you smoked since the beginning of the year?
B: Only one.

In the above exchange, person A is presenting to person B a timeframe stretching from January 1 until now within which to set any possible smoking events. All we know from B's response is that there has been one smoking event in that period, and we don't know at what point it occurred.
 
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That's irrelevant. What's the point of analysing a sentence from the perspective of the time of quoting? You analyse it from the moment of utterance.

When "it has rained four times since October" was presented in the OP on 22-Jun-2019 at 16:38, it doesn't necessarily mean it was intended to be interpreted by reference to that time. A priori, it could have been uttered much earlier than that, as from some fictional work, but presented, or quoted, on 22-Jun-2019 at 16:38.


Let me make this clear: The word since sets only the beginning point of the timeframe within which the events happen. It does not tell you when the events happen. The first event could occur either at, or some time after, that beginning point of the timeframe.

But consider "There have been many changes since the war." Someone told me the changes had to occur after the war.

What runs counter exactly? With the word after, the dictionary means exactly what I'm saying here—that the timeframe in question begins at that point.

I'm afraid the dictionary has more than one time-related definition for since, and they don't specify the time frame in the same way. Merriam-Webster, for example, gives the following definition:

in the time after (a specified time or event in the past): from (a point in the past) until the present time

The first one is like Collins' "during or throughout the period of time after" and sets the beginning of the time frame after a time or event in the past. (One example would be "I haven't eaten since breakfast." )


Now consider "It has only rained once since May." According to you, the time frame stretches from May 1 to the time at which the utterance was made. But if we plug Collins' definition "during or throughout the period of time after" into the example, it means it could not have rained during the month of May, but during or throughout the period of time after May. (N.B., Collins' example might not properly reflect the definition.)

Consider another example: John has seen Mary since 10 o'clock. It is taken to mean John saw Mary after ten.

Now compare that with "It has been raining since May." The rain is interpreted as first occurring during the month of May, not after it. Therefore the above definition doesn't work here.


Look at this short dialogue:

A: How many cigarettes have you smoked since the beginning of the year?
B: Only one.

In the above exchange, person A is presenting to person B a timeframe stretching from January 1 until now within which to set any possible smoking events. All we know from B's response is that there has been one smoking event in that period, and we don't know at what point it occurred.

Maybe the definition at work here is "from (a point in the past) until the present time." Which definition is relevant may have to do with the durative vs. punctual distinction of predicates.
 
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Phaedrus

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Consider another example: John has seen Mary since 10 o'clock. It is taken to mean John saw Mary after ten.

Would you maintain the same thing in a context in which "John has seen Mary since 10 o'clock" referred to the time at which Mary became visible to John? For example, let's suppose John is conducting satellite surveillance and has been looking for Mary. It is now noon. At 10 o'clock in the morning, John spotted Mary via satellite and has been tracking Mary on his computer ever since. The computer he is using has put a circle around Mary on the screen and maintains that circle around her wherever Mary moves. John's coworker in the surveillance room reports to their supervisor, "John has seen Mary since 10 o'clock." In that context, "since 10 o'clock" specifies the time at which John began to see Mary. He began to see her at 10 o'clock and has continued to see her since then. At noon, John has seen Mary on his computer screen for 2 hours straight.
 
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When "it has rained four times since October" was presented in the OP on 22-Jun-2019 at 16:38, it doesn't necessarily mean it was intended to be interpreted by reference to that time. A priori, it could have been uttered much earlier than that, as from some fictional work, but presented, or quoted, on 22-Jun-2019 at 16:38.
This is a separate point so let's leave it for now.


But consider "There have been many changes since the war." Someone told me the changes had to occur after the war.

Yes, of course that's what it means.


I'm afraid the dictionary has more than one time-related definition for since, and they don't specify the time frame in the same way. Merriam-Webster, for example, gives the following definition:

in the time after (a specified time or event in the past): from (a point in the past) until the present time


Yes, they do. The Merriam-Webster phrasing is exactly how I'd phrase it.

The first one is like Collins' "during or throughout the period of time after" and sets the beginning of the time frame after a time or event in the past. (One example would be "I haven't eaten since breakfast." )


The timeframe goes from a point in the past until the moment of utterance. That means it exists in time after the point in time it begins. I can't quite figure out what's confusing you about this. In this last example, breakfast is conceived to be the initial time point, when the period begins, since that it the last time the speaker ate.

Now consider "It has only rained once since May." According to you, the time frame stretches from May 1 to the time at which the utterance was made.

No, I definitely didn't say that. Maybe this is the source of your confusion. Read post #2 again. In the speaker's mind, May is conceived of as a point in time. In reality, this could be anywhere in the month, between the 1st and 31st.

But if we plug Collins' definition "during or throughout the period of time after" into the example, it means it could not have rained during the month of May, but during or throughout the period of time after May. (N.B., Collins' example might not properly reflect the definition.)

Right, now I see where you're going wrong. The sentence is very likely to mean that the last time it rained was in May, but it does not necessarily mean that.

Consider another example: John has seen Mary since 10 o'clock. It is taken to mean John saw Mary after ten. Now compare that with "It has been raining since May." The rain is interpreted as first occurring during the month of May, not after it. Therefore the above definition doesn't work here.

Don't complicate things with the continuous aspect. The thread is already too complicated. I think you need to grasp the essential meaning of since first. Then once you've got that, everything will fall into place.


Maybe the definition at work here is "from (a point in the past) until the present time." Which definition is relevant may have to do with the durative vs. punctual distinction of predicates.

This is the definition, yes. There's only one definition. And yes, you have to distinguish the difference between conceived points in time and periods of time. This is key to understanding this question.

Let's try to keep posts shorter by dealing with only one point at a time.
 
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