[Grammar] by the 7 o'clock train

Are these expressions okay?

1. He will come here by the 7 o'clock train.
2. He will come here by 7 o'clock train.
3. He will come here on the 7 o'clock train.

Snappy said:

Are these expressions okay?

1. He will come here by the 7 o'clock train.
2. He will come here by 7 o'clock train.
3. He will come here on the 7 o'clock train.

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#3 please. You will not hear #'s 1 or 2 in AmE.

You won't actually hear "he will come here" by any train, in any English dialect. We'd say arrive, or come.

Let me confirm one more thing.
"* went by the * o'clock train" is found in native speakers' writings.
Is this a non-standard expression or "went by the * o'clock train" is idiomatically exceptional?

Snappy said:

Let me confirm one more thing.
"* went by the * o'clock train" is found in native speakers' writings.
Is this a non-standard expression or "went by the * o'clock train" is idiomatically exceptional?

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Two points:
1. I don't entirely agree with konungursvia when he says, "You won't actually hear "he will come here" by any train, in any English dialect. We'd say arrive, or come." It may not be common, but it's possible.
2. In your example (above), will come is now went. Still, with COME or GO, on is probably more common, but by is possible.

My point is that "come here" is a particular sort of phrase, and is usually imperative. If you're using a future indicative mood and tense, just "come" would suffice, and sound natural. Or, you could use "arrive". But in such a case, "come here" sounds like a non-native mixing registers.

konungursvia said:

My point is that "come here" is a particular sort of phrase, and is usually imperative. If you're using a future indicative mood and tense, just "come" would suffice, and sound natural. Or, you could use "arrive". But in such a case, "come here" sounds like a non-native mixing registers.

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This may be true of your dialect. Arrive or come are possibly more likely than come here in my dialect for the original sentence, but come here is perfectly natural.

I am suggesting it is not very natural when juxtaposed with a means of transport. Perhaps you're getting too used to Czech, and have lost touch with English to some extent.

Snappy said:

Let me confirm one more thing.
"* went by the * o'clock train" is found in native speakers' writings.
...

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Yes, but - strangely - not 'come'. It seems to be an elided version of 'went by [train: specifically,] the N o'clock train.'

b

konungursvia said:

I am suggesting it is not very natural when juxtaposed with a means of transport. Perhaps you're getting too used to Czech, and have lost touch with English to some extent.

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That is, of course, always possible. However, I discussed this with a number of colleagues. Most of the BrE speakers agreed with me that: Arrive or come are possibly more likely than come here in my dialect for the original sentence, but come here is perfectly natural.

konungursvia said:

I am suggesting it is not very natural when juxtaposed with a means of transport. Perhaps you're getting too used to Czech, and have lost touch with English to some extent.

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Nope. Maybe you are too confident about natural usage in other English dialects? "Come here by X" where X is a form of transport is quite familiar to me.

Munch said:

Nope. Maybe you are too confident about natural usage in other English dialects? "Come here by X" where X is a form of transport is quite familiar to me.

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That's what I said... if you read the thread, I said it sounds quite natural in the imperative. But for a declarative "He will....." I maintain "come" and "arrive" are far more natural than the phrasal "come here."

konungursvia said:

That's what I said... if you read the thread, I said it sounds quite natural in the imperative. But for a declarative "He will....." I maintain "come" and "arrive" are far more natural than the phrasal "come here."

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Fine - in your dialect, geolect or idiolect.

If you read the thread, what I wrote was, "Most of the BrE speakers agreed with me that: Arrive or come are possibly more likely than come here in my dialect for the original sentence, but come here is perfectly natural." (Underlining added).
Munch wrote: "Come here by X" where X is a form of transport is quite familiar to me.(Underlining added.)

fivejedjon said:

Fine - in your dialect, geolect or idiolect.

If you read the thread, what I wrote was, "Most of the BrE speakers agreed with me that: Arrive or come are possibly more likely than come here in my dialect for the original sentence, but come here is perfectly natural." (Underlining added).
Munch wrote: "Come here by X" where X is a form of transport is quite familiar to me.(Underlining added.)

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Yes, I remember that part. Still, I think English abhors redundancy, and it sounds odd to me to add "here" to sentences such as this:

"He will come by bus."

That was my point. By the way, my mother is a Brit and I grew up with her as my main English language model.

konungursvia said:

... I think English abhors redundancy Now that is a thought that could start a discussion that would keep going until we have driven readers of this thread insane. If you are interested, we can talk about it by PM, but I don't think it will offer much to other readers,

and it sounds odd to me to add "here" to sentences such as this:

"He will come by bus." I can't argue with that. It sounds odd to you; it doesn't to me. Neither of us is 'right' - and neither is 'wrong'.

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5jj

By the way, what is a jedjon? Are you a Jedi?

konungursvia said:

By the way, what is a jedjon? Are you a Jedi?

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jedjon (always a lower-case initial letter) cannot survive in the singular (though they never take a plural -s). They exist in in the mystic regions between the quatenary and its successor's successor.

Exactly what they are is a mystery that has puzzled sages for the past fifteen days or more. Little is known about them or their habits. The only thing that has been established for certain is that they emerge from their lairs at infrequent times to nibble at the ankles of passing konungursviae (jedjon are known to use only latin plurals).

I suspected as much.

:twisted: