Pronunciation of were (where)

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Aivaras

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Could you comment this?

were /wɜr; unstressed wər; Brit. also wɛər/
where /ʰwɛər, wɛər/
dictionary.reference.com

In other words, can "were" be pronounced like "where"? In what cases?
Is it an error? Or is it a matter of prescriptive/descriptive use of English?
 

2006

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Could you comment on this?

were /wɜr; unstressed wər; Brit. also wɛər/
where /ʰwɛər, wɛər/
dictionary.reference.com

In other words, can "were" be pronounced like "where"? not as far as I'm concerned
The "w" and the "wh" have different pronunciations, and the "ere" pronunciations are different in the two words.

"were" rhymes with 'fur' and 'stir'.
"where" rhymes with 'there' and 'fair'.

"where" is often pronounced the same as 'wear', but that is a lazy nonstandard pronunciation.
2006
 

5jj

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2006: The "w" and the "wh" have different pronunciations
5jj: This is true in a number of dialects, but most speakers begin both words with the same /w/

2006: "where" is often pronounced the same as 'wear', but that is a lazy nonstandard pronunciation.
5jj: I don't think many people would agree with that opinion these days.
 

Aivaras

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In other words, can "were" be pronounced like "where"? not as far as I'm concerned
The "w" and the "wh" have different pronunciations, and the "ere" pronunciations are different in the two words."were" rhymes with 'fur' and 'stir'.
"where" rhymes with 'there' and 'fair'.

"where" is often pronounced the same as 'wear', but that is a lazy nonstandard pronunciation.

I was sure that the pronunciation of "where" and "wear" is the same (at least for EFL speakers)... My question was about pronouncing "were" the same as "where" (I know the standard difference fir/fair etc.). When does it happen? If it does...
 

5jj

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My question was about pronouncing "were" the same as "where" (I know the standard difference fir/fair etc.). When does it happen? If it does...
In Liverpool there is no contrast between // and /ɜː/. The phoneme produced in that part of England is close to [œː]
 

birdeen's call

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2006, merging "wh" and "w" is not nonstandard.
 

thatone

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* On the were-where issue
From Wikipedia:
The square-nurse merger is a merger of /ɜː(r)/ with /ɛə(r)/ that occurs in some accents (for example Liverpool, Dublin, and Belfast) that makes homophonous pairs such as fur/fair, spur/spare, and curd/cared.
It is possible that the merger is found in at least some varieties of African American Vernacular English.
...
Labov (1994) also reports such a merger in some western parts of the United States 'with a high degree of r constriction.'

So the standard pronunciation of were is /wɚ/ and where is /weɚ/ (using rhotic IPA). Pronouncing them the same is dialectal.

* On the /w/ - /hw/ issue
Again from Wikipedia

The wine-whine merger is a merger by which voiceless /hw/ is reduced to voiced /w/.
...
The merger is essentially complete in England, Wales, the West Indies, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, and is widespread in the United States and Canada.
...
According to Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006: 49),[2] while there are regions of the U.S. (particularly in the Southeast) where speakers keeping the distinction are about as numerous as those having the merger, there are no regions where the preservation of the distinction is predominant. Throughout the U.S. and Canada, about 83% of respondents in the survey had the merger completely, while about 17% preserved at least some trace of the distinction.
...
While some RP speakers still use /hw/, most accents of England, Wales, West Indies and the southern hemisphere have only /w/.

Therefore pronouncing them differently is dialectal/characteristic of a conservative dialect.

Also as a pedantic side note, there's no such thing as /ɜr/ or /ər/ in English. There's either /ɜ:/ and /ə/ for non-rhotic dialects or /əɹ/ - /ɚ/ for rhotic ones (/ɝ/ can also be used for a stressed /ɚ/, but it's technically incorrect since /ɜ/ doesn't really exist in rhotic dialects, except for when it replaces /ʌ/)
 
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2006

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2006, merging "wh" and "w" is not nonstandard.
That's a matter of opinion.
In standard pronunciation 'weather' and 'whether' are different, and students should be aware of that.
 
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birdeen's call

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That's a matter of opinion.
In standard pronunciation 'weather' and 'whether' are different, and students should be aware of that.
It is a matter of opinion, but major dictionaries have an opinion different from yours. AH, MW, Collins, OALD all give the pronunciation you call nonstandard (none of them calls it nonstandard) and two of them (the British ones) give only this one.
 
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5jj

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That's a matter of opinion.
In standard pronunciation 'weather' and 'whether' are different, and students should be aware of that.
NO.

BC is correct.

As thatone showed, "pronouncing them differently is dialectal/characteristic of a conservative dialect."

I'll add another voice:

"WH

… the pronunciation is most cases is w, as in white waɪt. An alternative pronunciation, depending on regional, social and stylistic factors, is hw, thus hwait. This h pronunciation is usual in Scottish and Irish English, and decreasingly so in AmE, but not otherwise. (Among those who pronounce simple w, the pronunciation with hw tends to be considered ‘better’, and so is used by some people in formal styles only). Learners of EFL are recommended to use plain w."

Wells, J C, (2008), Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd edn), Harlow: PearsonLongman.
 

2006

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As thatone showed, "pronouncing them differently is dialectal/characteristic of a conservative dialect." It seems that you mean a traditionally correct pronunciation.

And let me ask those of you who think that "weather" and whether" should have the same pronunciation how you would handle the following situuation.

Question: How is 'whether' spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'w-h-e-ther' and 'w-e-a-ther'?

"WH
Learners of EFL are recommended to use plain w."

It's very questionable for an 'authority' to recommend nonstandard pronunciation. (if I understand your post correctly)

2006
 

thatone

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Question: How is 'whether' spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'w-h-e-ther' and 'w-e-a-ther'?

Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?

It's very questionable for an 'authority' to recommend nonstandard pronunciation. (if I understand your post correctly)

Standard
4 : substantially uniform and well established by usage in the speech and writing of the educated and widely recognized as acceptable *standard pronunciation is subject to regional variations* (Merriam, Webster)

Let's see, in Labov's survey only 1/6 of all respondents from the US and Canada don't have the wine-whine merger. Numbers are even lower in most English speaking countries. I'm sorry, but what was correct years ago is dialectal today. Happens all the time. Think about yod-dropping in the US. Think about the Great Vowel Shift. I'm sure your pronunciation is nonstandard by Middle English standards.
 
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5jj

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Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?
Good Luck, thatone. I am leaving the discussion to you and BC, though I don't think you'll get very far. Statistics and facts have little chance against irrational faith.
 

2006

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Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?
This is irrelevant. No one disputes that the two m words have the same pronunciation.
And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently./QUOTE]
2006
 
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2006

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5jj

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2006: That's a cop-out.
5jj:I'll cop out of discussions with anyone who thinks that assertion is all that is required for acceptable argument. I have better things to do with my time.

2006: And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently.
5jj: Nobody has claimed there weren't. As a matter of fact, I pronounce the words differently myself. I just accept that my pronunciation of 'whether' is not 'the correct' version. It is an acceptable, non-standard version that still enjoys a certain prestige among a minority of speakers.
 

birdeen's call

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Question: How is 'meat' spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'm-e-a-t' and 'm-e-e-t'?
This is irrelevant. No one disputes that the two m words have the same pronunciation.
And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently.
2006
OK, so this example will be exactly analogous to your argument I think:
Question: How is "diner" spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'd-i-n-e-r' and 'D-i-n-a-h'?
 

2006

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OK, so this example will be exactly analogous to your argument I think:
Question: How is "diner" spelled?
Would you answer that there are two spellings, 'd-i-n-e-r' and 'D-i-n-a-h'?
No I would not. As opposed to at least some BrE, in standard North American English the r at the end of words is pronounced.
I don't think there is any point in offering new examples.
 

2006

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2006: That's a cop-out.
5jj:I'll cop out of discussions with anyone who thinks that assertion is all that is required for acceptable argument. You and others have gone to great lengths to supposedly show how unusual it is to pronounce words like "weather" and" whether" differently, practically to the point of saying that pronouncing them differently is wrong, or at least dialectal.

2006: And there are people who pronounce "whether" and "weather" differently.
5jj: Nobody has claimed there weren't. As a matter of fact, I pronounce the words differently myself. But at the end of the day, the two native speakers here, you and I, both pronounce them differently. Do you think that is just a coincidence?
So you have not changed my belief that the most correct and standard pronunciation of the two words is different. Otherwise it could be that one can only know which word the speaker means through the rest of the words in the sentence. Does that sound like an optimal way of knowing what the speaker is saying? And that does not only apply to those two particular words.
I hope to have nothing more to say on this thread.
 

5jj

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You and others have gone to great lengths to supposedly show how unusual it is to pronounce words like "weather" and" whether" differently, practically to the point of saying that pronouncing them differently is wrong, or at least dialectal.
Nobody has suggested it is wrong, but when it is used by less than 20%of the population, it does not appear reasonable to call it 'standard'.

So you have not changed my belief that the most correct and standard pronunciation of the two words is different. Otherwise it could be that one can only know which word the speaker means through the rest of the words in the sentence. Does that sound like an optimal way of knowing what the speaker is saying?
If this were the only homophone pair/pear in/inn the language, you/ewe/yew might/mite be wright/rite/write/right. But/butt it isn't.
If you cannot accept the facts, then carry on in your fancies. They harm nobody - except the odd student who might start worrying about a non-existent problem.

A reminder of some of the facts:

Thatone:
According to Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006: 49),[2] while there are regions of the U.S. (particularly in the Southeast) where speakers keeping the distinction are about as numerous as those having the merger, there are no regions where the preservation of the distinction is predominant. Throughout the U.S. and Canada, about 83% of respondents in the survey had the merger completely, while about 17% preserved at least some trace of the distinction.
...
While some RP speakers still use /hw/, most accents of England, Wales, West Indies and the southern hemisphere have only /w/.

Birdeen’s Call:
It is a matter of opinion, but major dictionaries have an opinion different from yours. AH, MW, Collins, OALD all give the pronunciation you call nonstandard (none of them calls it nonstandard) and two of them (the British ones) give only this one.

5jj:

"… the pronunciation is most cases is w, as in white waɪt. An alternative pronunciation, depending on regional, social and stylistic factors, is hw, thus hwait. This h pronunciation is usual in Scottish and Irish English, and decreasingly so in AmE, but not otherwise."

Wells, J C, (2008), Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd edn), Harlow: PearsonLongman.
 
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