whom you should be careful how to talk to?

High on grammar · May 23, 2013

Hello everyone:
Is the underlined part in following sentence correct?

You are dealing with a man here whom you should be careful how to talk to .

Thanks

emsr2d2 · May 23, 2013

High on grammar said:
Hello everyone:
Is the underlined part in following sentence correct?

You are dealing with a man here whom you should be careful how to talk to .

Thanks

No. If I absolutely had to use "whom" I would say "You are dealing with a man to whom you should be careful how you talk".

High on grammar · May 23, 2013

emsr2d2 said:
No. If I absolutely had to use "whom" I would say "You are dealing with a man to whom you should be careful how you talk".

What is the difference? It is like saying " the man across from whom I used to live" and" The man whom I used to live across from."

5jj · May 23, 2013

High on grammar said:
What is the difference? It is like saying " the man across from whom I used to live" and" The man whom I used to live across from."

The first is very stuffy, and something of a mix of registers; the second is a bizarre mix of registers.

Barb_D · May 24, 2013

In short, don't use "whom" unless it's immediately after a preposition, if you must use it at all. Most native speakers use "who" (except immediately after a preposition).

High on grammar · May 24, 2013

5jj said:
The first is very stuffy, and something of a mix of registers; the second is a bizarre mix of registers.

Please give a grammatical explanation: what do you mean by "something of a mix of registers" and " a bizarre mix of registers" ?

philo2009 · May 24, 2013

High on grammar said:
What is the difference? It is like saying " the man across from whom I used to live" and" The man whom I used to live across from."

No, it's actually not the same from a structural viewpoint.

The problem with the sentence at issue is that the preposition is deferred until after a postmodifying phrase (how to talk) - setting aside the separate issue of the correctness of the phrase itself (--> how you talk, as indicated in a previous answer).

The relative elasticity in English of the preposition-to-relative pronoun connection does not extend to circumventing that level of obstacle!

Barb_D · May 24, 2013

I'm sure that cleared everything up for the original poster completely.

probus · May 24, 2013

When 5jj talked about registers, he was referring to the kinds of usages one would usually resort to in various circumstances. I speak to my wife differently than I would speak to you or 5jj. You would speak differently with your friends at the pub than you would to your teacher, or at your mother's funeral.

High on grammar · May 24, 2013

philo2009 said:
No, it's actually not the same from a structural viewpoint.

The problem with the sentence at issue that the preposition is deferred until after a postmodifying phrase (how to talk) - setting aside the separate issue of the correctness of the phrase itself (--> how you talk, as indicated in a previous answer).

The relative elasticity in English of the preposition-to-relative pronoun connection does not extend to circumventing that level of obstacle!

The phrase you are referring to as incorrect is "how to talk to" not "how you talk".
And by the way here are a couple of examples of stranded prepositions:
[FONT=&quot]Which act did John leave the theater after?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who did you destroy a picture of?

[/FONT]

High on grammar · May 24, 2013

High on grammar said:
The phrase you are referring to as incorrect is "how to talk to" not "how you talk".
And by the way here are a couple of examples of stranded prepositions:

Which act did John leave the theater after?

Who did you destroy a picture of?

what if I change " the man across from whom I used to live" and " the man whom I used to live across from" to

[FONT=&quot][The man across the street from whom I used to live.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]]
[The man who I used to live across the street from.]

Thank you so much
[/FONT]

Rover_KE · May 24, 2013

Those still interested in this thread may like to read further opinions here.

High on grammar · May 24, 2013

Rover_KE said:
Those still interested in this thread may like to read further opinions here.

But, you didn't answer my question, now did you.

5jj · May 24, 2013

High on grammar said:
But, you didn't answer my question, now did you.

People here and in the other forum have tried to suggest in different ways that the sentences are clumsy/awkward, unnatural etc.

As for: [The man across the street from whom I used to live.]
[The man who I used to live across the street from.],

no native speaker that I know would say or write the first. You might hear the second. In writing, we'd be more likely to say something like, "The man who used to live across the street from me", "The man who used to live opposite (me)" or "The man I used to live opposite".

High on grammar · May 24, 2013

5jj said:
People here and in the other forum have tried to suggest in different ways that the sentences are clumsy/awkward, unnatural etc.

As for: [The man across the street from whom I used to live.]
[The man who I used to live across the street from.],

no native speaker that I know would say or write the first. You might hear the second. In writing, we'd be more likely to say something like, "The man who used to live across the street from me", "The man who used to live opposite (me)" or "The man I used to live opposite".

I don't know if you are a native speaker or not, but these two last sentences were suggested by a native speaker of English in the other forum.

emsr2d2 · May 24, 2013

The main problem with "The man across the street from whom I used to live" is that it sounds as if "whom" refers to "the street", which would make no sense and be grammatically incorrect.

The only way to say that using "whom" is "The man from whom I used to live across the street". I have never found the need to utter such a sentence. Perhaps fifty years ago, it might have been more common but, to the disappointment of some, these days you will hear, as 5jj said, "The man I used to live across the street from" or "The man I used to live opposite" from most people.

5jj · May 24, 2013

You might like:

The Naughty Preposition
Morris Bishop

I lately lost a preposition:
It hid, I thought, beneath my chair.
And angrily I cried: "Perdition!
Up from out of in under there!''

Correctness is my vade mecum,
And straggling phrases I abhor;
And yet I wondered: "What should he come
Up from out of in under for?''

The Naughty Preposition

I imagine that Bishop was sitting on the chair up from out in under which the preposition was supposed to come.

philo2009 · May 27, 2013

The phrase you are referring to as incorrect is "how to talk to" not "how you talk".
Since you are not comparing like with like, your objection makes little sense. The point concerning the correctness of the phrase in isolation was simply that of infinitive construction vs. subordinate clause as postmodifier to the adjective 'careful' (i.e. you cannot *be careful how to do something) , irrespective of the presence or absence of 'to', whose position relates to a quite separate set of grammatical rules that are - or at least should be - the main focus of our discussion.

And by the way here are a couple of examples of stranded prepositions:
Which act did John leave the theater after?
Who did you destroy a picture of?
Yes, indeed they are, but we are dealing here with far more than a simple stranded preposition!

We have, at the risk of repeating myself, a clause (as it should be, see above) postmodifying an adjective, and the preposition simply cannot acceptably be 'stranded' after that, any more than it could be after the conditional clause of

*He is a man you should not talk if you meet him to.

(cf. possible:*He is a man you should not talk to if you meet him/ ...to whom you should not talk if you meet him).

emsr2d2 · May 27, 2013

philo2009 said:
... to whom you should not talk to if you meet him).

I don't think you meant to include the second "to" in that example.

philo2009 · May 29, 2013

You are right: I did not!
The post has been edited.

whom you should be careful how to talk to?

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