double perfect infinitive

ostap77 · Dec 20, 2010

"I would have liked to have seen her the party. But she said she was not coming." Is it correct? Is this kind of grammatical counstruction used in speech?

bhaisahab · Dec 20, 2010

ostap77 said:
"I would have liked to have seen hert at a party. But she said she was not coming." Is it correct? Is this kind of grammatical construction used in speech?

"I would have liked to have seen her at the party." This is correct, but it would be better followed by "But she didn't come."

Click to expand...

ostap77 · Dec 20, 2010

bhaisahab said:
ostap77 said:

"I would have liked to have seen hert at a party. But she said she was not coming." Is it correct? Is this kind of grammatical construction used in speech?

"I would have liked to have seen her at the party." This is correct, but it would be better followed by "But she didn't come."

Click to expand...

"I would have liked to have seen......"

OR

"I would like to have seen..........."

I assume there would be no difference in meaning. Are they equally used in conversation? Doesn't the first one sound more sophisticated?

Click to expand...

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

A pedant would argue that these are possible and correct:

1. I wish (now) that I had seen her at the party (in the past).
I would like to have seen her.

2. I wished (when I was at the party, in the past) to see her at the party.
I would have liked to see her.

3. I wished (when I was at the party, in the past) that I had seen her before the party (at an earlier past time).
I would have liked to have seen her.

Many people use the situation#3 construction in situation #1 and/or situation #2. The pedant would consider this to be incorrect.

e2e4 · Dec 20, 2010

/A learner/

ostap77 said:
"I would have liked to have seen her the party. But she said she was not coming." Is it correct? Is this kind of grammatical counstruction is used in speech?

"I would have liked to have seen her at the party." is perfectly correct.
In my opinion, "But she didn't come" wouldn't be better solution to be the second sentence because the perfect conditional "would have liked" tell us exactly that the event wasn't fulfilled. (No need for the second sentence of this type)
In addition, and in my opinion, the thread starter's second sentence doesn't match the first one.
(I told her that I liked to see her at the party but she said she wouldn't come?)
Also there is no doubling of the perfect infinitive in the sentence.
"to have seen" is the only one perfect infinitive used.

:x-mas:

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

e2e4 said:
"I would have liked to have seen her at the party." is perfectly correct. Well some would argue that it is not 'perfectly' correct.

In my opinion, "But she didn't come" wouldn't be better solution to be the second sentence because the perfect conditional "would have liked" tells us exactly that the event wasn't fulfilled. (No need for the second sentence of this type). There is no need, but it's very natural.

In addition, and in my opinion, the thread starter's second sentence doesn't match the first one. Both the Op's and bhaisahab's sentences are possible follow-ons.
(I told her that I liked to see her at the party but she said she wouldn't come?) That one is possible, but only in such a situation as the reporting of:
I: I like to see you at the party. [= I think that your presence at the party (which we hold at regular intervals) is desirable]
She: I won't come! [= I refuse to attend the party (which is taking place soon)]

Also there is no doubling of the perfect infinitive in the sentence. "to have seen" is the only one perfect infinitive used. True.

5

BobK · Dec 20, 2010

Perfectly? See https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/137209-double-perfect-infinitive.html#post692265 ;-)

b

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

I have just had an interesting experience.(Well, I thought it was interesting.) A CouchSurfing guest who was due to arrive tomorrow had to cancel. I had been looking forward to meeting her, and wanted to let her know this. I know that in practice any of the three utterances below are possible, but I wonder what the pedant would say.

1. I would have liked to meet you.
2. I would like to have met you.
3. I would have liked to have met you.

I imagine, if we assume an unuttered if your flight had not been cancelled, then we are dealing with a counterfactual situation, so we should use I would have liked. And, as the meeting is not anterior to the liking, then it must be to meet rather than to have met. So, the pedant’s choice, IMO, would be #1.

Interesting that an utterance such as I would have liked to meet you which would, without full context, probably be taken to refer to a past disappointment about a past non-meeting in fact refers to a future disappointment about a future non-meeting.

I think.

BobK · Dec 20, 2010

Pedants of the world, unite. You have nothing to lose but your πέδας. (I might have got the accent wrong, but the Greek for 'chains' is the root of 'pedant'. Neat, huh?) ;-)

b

e2e4 · Dec 20, 2010

/A learner/

fivejedjon said:
5

Originally Posted by e2e4

"I would have liked to have seen her at the party." is perfectly correct. Well some would argue that it is not 'perfectly' correct.
In my, learner's opinion,"to have seen" means here "having her seen" what means that the party is over (fulfilled).
"to see her" wouldn't work for me because "to see" is time indefinite. Actually it is something that is to fulfill. But "to see her" had to be finished before my thinking (of my wish) in the simple past.
The party had happened in the deep past before my thinking of what I had liked.
In my opinion, "But she didn't come" wouldn't be better solution to be the second sentence because the perfect conditional "would have liked" tells us exactly that the event wasn't fulfilled. (No need for the second sentence of this type). There is no need, but it's very natural.I think that more "very natural" would be........but , well, as you know, it wasn't like that.
In addition, and in my opinion, the thread starter's second sentence doesn't match the first one. Both the Op's and bhaisahab's sentences are possible follow-ones.(is this correct correction?)
(I told her that I liked to see her at the party but she said she wouldn't come?) That one is possible, but only in such a situation as the reporting of:
I: I like to see you at the party. [= I think that your presence at the party (which we hold at regular intervals) is desirable]
She: I won't come! [= I refuse to attend the party (which is taking place soon)]I suppose she would tell it more politely and probably say "I am afraid I can't come".;-)

Also there is no doubling of the perfect infinitive in the sentence. "to have seen" is the only one perfect infinitive used. True.Thank you.

Thanks

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

e2e4 said:
Both the Op's and bhaisahab's sentences are possible follow-ones.(is this correct correction?) No; a 'follow-on' is an informal way of referring to something that follows (on).

She: I won't come! [= I refuse to attend the party (which is taking place soon)]I suppose she would [STRIKE]tell[/STRIKE] say it more politely and probably say "I am afraid I can't come". 'I won't come' is certainly very direct, but she could have said it.

5

e2e4 · Dec 20, 2010

/A learner/

fivejedjon said:
1. I would have liked to meet you.

Interesting that an utterance such as I would have liked to meet you which would, without full context, probably be taken to refer to a past disappointment about a past non-meeting in fact refers to a future disappointment about a future non-meeting.

I think.

In my, poor-learner's, opinion, the perfect conditional shouldn't be used with the indefinite events but only those that are finished or ought to have been finished in the past.

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

e2e4 said:
In my, poor-learner's opinion, the perfect conditional shouldn't be used with the indefinite events but only those that are finished or ought to have been finished in the past.

It's perfectly acceptable if we wish to to express future anteriorority.

I hope (that) I will have finished by 8 o'clock this evening.
I hope to have finished by 8 o'clock this evening.

e2e4 · Dec 20, 2010

/A learner/

fivejedjon said:
It's perfectly acceptable if we wish to to express future anteriorority.

I hope (that) I will have finished by 8 o'clock this evening.
I hope to have finished by 8 o'clock this evening.

I must say that I see no any perfect conditional in any of your two sentences.

will have finished ~ future perfect tense
to have finished ~ perfect infinitive

I also wonder what will I have finished by 8 o'clock this evening.

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

e2e4 said:
I must say that I see no any perfect conditional in any of your two sentences.

You are absolutely right. Sorry. Geriatric brain malfunction.

I also wonder what will I have finished by 8 o'clock this evening. Whatever I started.

5

5jj · Dec 20, 2010

Brain functioning again, I hope:

If we started to eat at eight tomorrow, we would have finished by ten.

How's that?

e2e4 · Dec 21, 2010

fivejedjon said:
Brain functioning again, I hope:

If we started to eat at eight tomorrow, we would have finished by ten.

How's that?

Someone must have pressed the reset button.:-D

You are a teacher. You let me know.;-)

I would say
If we start to eat at eight tomorrow, we will have finished it by ten.

How's that?

5jj · Dec 21, 2010

e2e4 said:
I would say:
If we start to eat at eight tomorrow, we will have finished it by ten.

How's that?

Absolutely fine.

I wrote what I did because you had said, "the perfect conditional shouldn't be used with the indefinite events but only those that are finished or ought to have been finished in the past." I came up with what some people call a 'perfect conditional', and it has future reference.

You sentence is about a real possibility, mine a less real one. Both are grammatically correct.

bhaisahab · Dec 21, 2010

e2e4 said:
/A learner/

I am not familiar with all secrets of current English grammar.:-|

Would be correct for me

If we had been starting to eat at eight, we would have finished by ten.

This is not the perfect conditional but a conditional sentence, technically of type III.
I didn't use "had started" for it doesn't match the preposition at.
Using the past perfect continuous there is no time distance between the time when we started and finished.

Any of my thinking acceptable?

Sorry but no, "If we had started to eat at eight..." is correct.

e2e4 · Dec 21, 2010

bhaisahab said:
Sorry but no, "If we had started to eat at eight..." is correct.

I had got to it by myself and deleted that message.

No need for recovering.

Thanks anyway

In addition

If we had started to eat at eight, we would have finished by ten.

Please tell me what we would have been doing for two hours?

double perfect infinitive

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