[Grammar] The time during which...

I think one of the most confusing parts of English grammar is the following structure. Since I started learning relative clause in English, I have had difficulty understanding it.
I haven't known how this preposition comes before relative pronoun. However, I've know in some cases these prepositions are relevant to the verb in the clause, but everyday I happen to see these kind of structures that use prepositions like this, which is not related to the verbs in the clause.
Now, I want to know why we use 'by' with standard or 'at' with rate? Do we, learners, have to memorize them? Or there is a rule for them? It would be great if introduce sources like websites, books to study them.
I am not sure. Maybe I was wrong, and all of these prepositions implied in the verbs in the clause.I'm confused with which one to apply when constructing sentences around these.

The rate at which ...
The standard by which...
The time during which...
The speed at which...
The topic of which...
The situation in which...

nininaz said:

I think one of the most confusing parts of English grammar is the following structure. Since I started learning relative clauses in English, I have had difficulty understanding it.
I haven't known how this preposition comes before relative pronoun. However, I've know in some cases these prepositions are relevant to the verb in the clause, but every day I happen to see these kind of structures that use prepositions like this, which is not related to the verbs in the clause :
Now, I want to know why we use 'by' with standard or 'at' with rate? Do we, learners, have to memorize them? Or there is a rule for them? It would be great if introduce sources like websites, books to study them.
I am not sure. Maybe I was wrong, and all of these prepositions implied in the verbs in the clause.I'm confused with which one to apply when constructing sentences around these.

The rate at which ...
The standard by which...
The time during which...
The speed at which...
The topic of which...
The situation in which...

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Ow. You're right. That is hard!

I'm not a grammarian, but I'm sure you'll hear from one on this thread. Meanwhile, here are some generalizations:

The rate at which ... Here you're talking about one specific rate, like twenty miles per hour. You're answering the question "What rate?"
The standard by which... Here you're talking about a range or set or principle used to judge or compare.
The time during which... Here you're talking about duration or a time period. Lunch is a time during which you eat.
The speed at which... Just like your rate example, you're talking about one specific speed.
The topic of which... This is awkward English but not wrong. Of often shows what something belongs to or is part of or is being refered to.
The situation in which... This is about placement. You're placed in a situation.

I know that doesn't tell you much. Let's see what others say.

I'm not sure I understand what's confusing you. The prepositions you mention have nothing to do with relative pronouns (except in your examples.) The following advice is for learning the prepositions. Look at the following preposition phrases and try to connect in your mind the prepositions with the noun phrases:

• at a rate
  
• at a speed
  
• by a standard
  
• during a time
  
• in a situation

(Note that other prepositions may be possible, depending on the meaning intended.)

When you've done this enough times to make a permanent connection (or 'collocation') between the words in your memory, you can proceed by adding more words (more 'context') to make more natural examples of the language. This will make it easier for you to make sense of, and therefore easier to learn and use, the target language. For example:

• at a steady rate
  
• at high speed
  
• by my standards
  
• during a time of great affluence
  
• in a very tricky situation

(Of course, you would normally need a teacher or a native-speaker or a dictionary to help with this.)

Next, to develop even further you could add even more context and even more sense by making complete sentences, for example. And by internalising these sentences you will be internalising the vocabulary you want to learn.

This is just one suggestion.

The polar ice caps are receding at the rate of 2 cm per year.
The rate at which the polar ice caps are receding is 2 cm per year.

In the above, the original sentence has a preposition which doesn't disappear when we use a relative pronoun. We can't say "the rate which the polar caps are receding is 2 cm per year." That would be incorrect.

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He offered me a rate of $50 per hour, but I turned it down.
The rate which he offered me was $50 per hour.

Here, there is no preposition in either.

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Is that what you're asking about?

teechar said:

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Is that what you're asking about?

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YES. This is exactly what I wanted to know.

teechar said:

In the above, the original sentence has a preposition which doesn't disappear when we use a relative pronoun. We can't say "the rate which the polar caps are receding is 2 cm per year." That would be incorrect.

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Thanks teacher. The above explanation was EXACTLY what I meant to know by posting this thread.
So how can we know that? As Jutfrank said should we practice more?

nininaz said:

As Jutfrank said should we practice more?

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That's right.
As an exercise, you can start with "standard". Write two simple sentences using the word "standard". Use "by" in only one sentence. Do not use relative pronouns in either.

Piscean said:

:up:

Nobody knows. We just have to accept that the way we use prepositions is idiomatic. The way we use them in relative clauses is normally exactly the way in which we use them elsewhere.

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For example in the following sentence,
"it is the standard by which all others are measured." I know 'by' is comes from 'are measured ' as a passive verb.
But in the following I don't know why the writer used 'by':
"It is a standard by which you judge, decide about, or deal with something."

nininaz said:

"It is a standard by which you judge, decide about, or deal with something."

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Where did you find that sentence?

teechar said:

Where did you find that sentence?

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In the Cambridge dictionary:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/criterion

nininaz said:

"it is the standard by which all others are measured." I know 'by' is comes from 'are measured ' as a passive verb.

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No, that's not right.

A standard is something that you use to compare another thing to.

by a standard = in comparison to a standard

One of the uses of by is to mean something similar to next to. When we make comparisons, we put things next to each other.

the standard by which all others are measured = the thing to which all others are compared

jutfrank said:

No, that's not right.

A standard is something that you use to compare another thing to.

by a standard = in comparison to a standard

One of the uses of by is to mean something similar to next to. When we make comparisons, we put things next to each other.

the standard by which all others are measured = the thing to which all others are compared

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Thanks teacher for helping me. It requires a great experience on teaching English to know what you said. It is really hard.

I think there is no way but memorizing this kind of structures in English grammar. However, I have always try understanding the use of rules in grammar to use them many more times in my essays or in speaking. I don't like just copying. I want to generate my own sentences and ideas.
But in this case I think there is no choice and I have to memorize it.

Thanks.

nininaz said:

I want to generate my own sentences and ideas.
But in this case I think there is no choice and I have to memorize it.

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What do you mean, nininaz? Memorize what?

nininaz said:

The rate at which ...
The standard by which...
The time during which...
The speed at which...
The topic of which...
The situation in which...

Click to expand...

My wife reminded to mention that none of your phrases are natural American English - especially at the start of a sentence.

We don't usually use which after prepositions. It's grammatical, but it's not usually conversational. Examples:

Unnatural: The speed at which you're driving is too fast.
Natural: You're driving too fast.

Unnatural: The time at which you arrived was late.
Natural: You arrived late.

Unnatural: The time during which you eat dinner is the only time I can visit.
Natural: Your dinner time is the only time I can visit.

Unnatural: The situation in which you found yourself was a lucky one.
Natural: You found yourself in a lucky situation.

Unnatural: The topic of which they spoke was very funny.
Natural: They spoke of a very funny topic.

It depends on the context, of course. Sometimes it's useful. But there are usually more direct ways to say the same thing.

jutfrank said:

What do you mean, nininaz? Memorize what?

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As I don't know where these prepositions should be used and which preposition is appropriate and suitable to be used before relative pronoun in a sentence.
And I have to memorize 'standards' come with 'by', 'at' comes with 'rate' and 'speed' and so on , as I didn't find these prepositions which are related to 'rate','speed','standard',... in any dictionaries.

Charlie Bernstein said:

My wife reminded to mention that none of your phrases are natural American English - especially at the start of a sentence.

We don't usually use which after prepositions. It's grammatical, but it's not usually conversational. Examples:

Unnatural: The speed at which you're driving is too fast.
Natural: You're driving too fast.

Unnatural: The time at which you arrived was late.
Natural: You arrived late.

Unnatural: The time during which you eat dinner is the only time I can visit.
Natural: Your dinner time is the only time I can visit.

Unnatural: The situation in which you found yourself was a lucky one.
Natural: You found yourself in a lucky situation.

Unnatural: The topic of which they spoke was very funny.
Natural: They spoke of a very funny topic.

It depends on the context, of course. Sometimes it's useful. But there are usually more direct ways to say the same thing.

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Thanks. Good tips from your wife. I think they are unnatural for natives , but they are natural for those who are preparing for IELTS OR TOEFL test, in case they have to write academic essays. Similarly, the more these structured used in out essays, the higher we will be scored.

Sorry, I'm still not understanding very well.

nininaz said:

As I don't know where these prepositions should be used...

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Yes, you do -- before 'which'!

and which preposition is appropriate and suitable to be used before relative pronoun in a sentence.

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Like we said, the choice of preposition is nothing to do with the relative pronoun.

And I have to memorize 'standards' come with 'by', 'at' comes with 'rate' and 'speed' and so on...

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If you put it like that, don't you have to memorise all vocabulary, then?

...I didn't find these prepositions which are related to 'rate','speed','standard',... in any dictionaries.

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That's why usingenglish.com is here!

jutfrank said:

Sorry, I'm still not understanding very well.



Yes, you do -- before 'which'!



Like we said, the choice of preposition is nothing to do with the relative pronoun.



If you put it like that, don't you have to memorise all vocabulary, then?



That's why usingenglish.com is here!

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Womb is the organ in the body of a woman or other femalemammal in which a babydevelops before birth.

This is another example that I don't know why we use preposition 'in' , and if 'in' is relevant to verb 'develop' or noun 'organ' ?

I also looked up in some dictionaries, but I couldn't find any preposition 'in' which is matched and comes with 'develop' or 'organ', and this is where I get confused and have to memorize this structure.

nininaz said:

Womb is the organ in the body of a woman or other femalemammal in which a babydevelops before birth.

This is another example that I don't know why we use preposition 'at'

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Why do you mention at? Are you talking about in?

There's nothing different here from Italian grammar (I think.)

l'utero è l'organo in cui un bambino si sviluppa

(Is that correct Italian?)

jutfrank said:

Why do you mention at? Are you talking about in?

There's nothing different here from Italian grammar (I think.)

l'utero è l'organo in cui un bambino si sviluppa

(Is that correct Italian?)

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Oh. I am really sorry. I meant 'in' instead of 'at' . I made all of them correct.