[Grammar] preposition

stitusandrews · May 25, 2010

Hello All,

Can we end a sentence or a question with a preposition?

Thank you,
Titus Andrews

2006 · May 25, 2010

stitusandrews said:
Hello All,

Can we end a sentence or a question with a preposition? Yes, we can!

hank you,
Titus Andrews

2006

bertietheblue · May 25, 2010

Ah, the hanging (or stranded) preposition! Historically, one of the most disputed areas of the English language. (PS: 2006, I still mean to come back to you on that other area of dispute, the split infinitive, sometime when I've given it more thought.) My view: people use hanging prepositions all the time in informal speech/writing - often because they simply sound more natural - but in formal writing there is still a tendency to avoid hanging prepositions, provided the sentence allows this, since there are certain structures that only sound correct with hanging prepositions:

What are you talking about?

You would never say:

About what are you talking?

Barb_D · May 25, 2010

Over and over, this fallacy of not ending a sentence with a preposition has been addressed.

English is not Latin. English does not have to follow the rules of Latin.

The nonsense about not ending with a preposition or even about not splitting the infinitive is based on the misguided notion of old-century linguists and grammaticians (what would that word be, if it were the right word?) that English should act like Latin. It doesn't have to.

(As the link I provided in the earlier thread says on the split infinitive also shows.)

To paraphrase the line attributed to Mr. Churchill (and I use him so no one accuses the Godless Americans as being the ones who ruined what was a perfectly fine language until we came along): Insisting a sentence not be ended with a preposition is the type of nonsense up with which I will not put.

bertietheblue · May 25, 2010

Barb_D said:
Over and over, this fallacy of not ending a sentence with a preposition has been addressed.

English is not Latin. English does not have to follow the rules of Latin.

The nonsense about not ending with a preposition or even about not splitting the infinitive is based on the misguided notion of old-century linguists and grammaticians (what would that word be, if it were the right word?) that English should act like Latin. It doesn't have to.

(As the link I provided in the earlier thread says on the split infinitive also shows.)

To paraphrase the line attributed to Mr. Churchill (and I use him so no one accuses the Godless Americans as being the ones who ruined what was a perfectly fine language until we came along): Insisting a sentence not be ended with a preposition is the type of nonsense up with which I will not put.

I agree. To a degree. There is no grammatical reason why we shouldn't split infinitives; no reason either why we shouldn't hang our prepositions. But although the prescriptive use of English might have little hold on the spoken word (though I would - and soon will again - argue that we don't tend to split negative infinitives even in speech), the written word is still catching up, and very slowly too, at least in formal use. I hope that when I come to collect my pension, I will be reading journals and documents that sound more like the way I speak, but for that, we'll have to wait and see.

bertietheblue · May 26, 2010

Barb_D said:
To paraphrase the line attributed to Mr. Churchill (and I use him so no one accuses the Godless Americans as being the ones who ruined what was a perfectly fine language until we came along): Insisting a sentence not be ended with a preposition is the type of nonsense up with which I will not put.

And it's Raymond Chandler, of course, for split infinitives: "God damn it, I split it so it will remain split!" By the way, I've been arguing with 2006 over split infinitives in the negative on some thread somewhere.

billmcd · May 26, 2010

A: "What time is your party at?"
B. "Don't you know that you should never end a sentence or question with a preposition?"
A. "Well, you did!"

stitusandrews · May 26, 2010

Oh oh oh... hold on a second...

Now you all have confused me...

Dont know where I am going from here...

Please help...

TheParser · May 26, 2010

stitusandrews said:
Oh oh oh... hold on a second...

Now you all have confused me...

Dont know where I am going from here...

Please help...

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Good morning, Mr. Andrews.

(1) As the other posters said:

(a) Yes, it is "good" English to end a sentence with a preposition.

(b) Sometimes, in fact, you must do so. Otherwise, your English

will sound "strange."

*****

Maybe you can post some examples. Then other posters will tell you

whether they think the prepositions in your examples are properly

placed.

Have a nice day!

bertietheblue · May 26, 2010

TheParser said:
***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Good morning, Mr. Andrews.

(1) As the other posters said:

(a) Yes, it is "good" English to end a sentence with a preposition.

(b) Sometimes, in fact, you must do so. Otherwise, your English

will sound "strange."

*****

Maybe you can post some examples. Then other posters will tell you

whether they think the prepositions in your examples are properly

placed.

Have a nice day!

So, do you think in formal, written English, hanging prepositions are the norm? If so, or if any other poster thinks so, be prepared for an onslaught* of sentences from the documents I proofread, where the hanging preposition would not be acceptable
*This onslaught might start next week though because I'm off to London for a few days tonight and right now, I'm sitting here at home with no documents coming in to quote from. But I will remember!

bertietheblue · May 26, 2010

stitusandrews said:
Examples:

1. I don't know what I am here for.

2. What am I going through?

3. This is a situation that I have never come across.

4. I haven't received an answer yet.

5. Where are we stopping at?

5. I hope he knows what is going on.

6. Which city do you live in?

All correct (although they're not all prepositions, eg 'yet' in 4 is an adverb). And the prepositions here would sound wrong if they weren't hanging. (Note this doesn't contradict anything I've said about formal, written English, by which I don't mean newspapers or novels but academic papers, learned journals, legal documents etc.)

Barb_D · May 26, 2010

Only #5 is "wrong" to me -- You wouldn't say "At where are we stopping" if you reversed it. Just delete the "at."

Barb_D · May 26, 2010

bertietheblue said:
And it's Raymond Chandler, of course, for split infinitives: "God damn it, I split it so it will remain split!"

Tell me more about that one?

bertietheblue · May 26, 2010

Barb_D said:
Tell me more about that one?

I think he barked it at his editor - just google 'raymond chandler split infinitives'

.

Barb_D · May 26, 2010

Love it! - From Wikipedia:
Raymond Chandler complained to the editor of The Atlantic Monthly about a proofreader who changed Chandler's split infinitives:
"By the way, would you convey my compliments to the purist who reads your proofs and tell him or her that I write in a sort of broken-down patois which is something like the way a Swiss-waiter talks, and that when I split an infinitive, God damn it, I split it so it will remain split, and when I interrupt the velvety smoothness of my more or less literate syntax with a few sudden words of barroom vernacular, this is done with the eyes wide open and the mind relaxed and attentive. The method may not be perfect, but it is all I have."

[Grammar] preposition

stitusandrews

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