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    #1

    voice

    What kind of voice is that?

    Fusilli (kind of spiral-shaped pasta) bakes well in casseroles.

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    #2

    Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    What kind of voice is that?

    Fusilli (kind of spiral-shaped pasta) bakes well in casseroles.
    The sentence is in the active voice. The verb is called an ergative verb, and is pseudo-intransitive.

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    #3

    Re: voice

    Engee, you could put me off of my food with words like that!
    Just depends on the sauce, Svartnik: tomatoes puréed, fresh Basil, red wine, lots of garlic, and real Parmesan!

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    #4

    Talking Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post
    Engee, you could put me off of my food with words like that!
    Just depends on the sauce, Svartnik: tomatoes puréed, fresh Basil, red wine, lots of garlic, and real Parmesan!
    Bon apettite, svartnik.


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    #5

    Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by engee30 View Post
    The sentence is in the active voice. The verb is called an ergative verb, and is pseudo-intransitive.

    Foods do not not quicken my pulse. Liquid refreshments do! Especially the ones that put hair on your chest.

    Active? Provided you have the same definition for active, what you state is equivalent to saying Fusilli executes the event expressed by the verb.

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    #6

    Cool Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    Foods do not not quicken my pulse. Liquid refreshments do! Especially the ones that put hair on your chest.

    Active? Provided you have the same definition for active, what you state is equivalent to saying Fusilli executes the event expressed by the verb.
    Okay, they may be not active verbs as such. Rather, they are anti-passives.

    An ergative verb can be used both in the active and passive voice.
    An ergative verb that is used intrinsically transitively is called a pseudo-intransitive. A pseudo-intransitive verb expresses the facility of a participant to undergo a process. Pseudo-intransitive ergative verbs differ from other intransitive verbs in the following ways:
    • they tend to occur in the present tense
      Fusilli bakes well in casseroles.
    • they express a general property of the entity to undergo the process in question
    • they are used with a cause implied but without the ability of an agent to be added in a by-phrase
      Fusilli bakes well in casseroles by the cook.
    • there is no corresponding transitive construction, either active or passive, that exactly expresses the same meaning as these intransitives do
      Fusilli bakes vegetables well in casseroles.
      Fusilli is baked well in casseroles.
    • they are accompanied by negation, or a modal (often will/won’t), or an adverb such as easily, well, any of which specify the propensity or otherwise of the thing to undergo the process
      Fusilli bakes well in casseroles.


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    #7

    Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by engee30 View Post
    Okay, they may be not active verbs as such. Rather, they are anti-passives
    In my opinion, this sentence is neither fish nor fowl.

    The sentence says when baking happens to the pasta, it yields readily (well) to an influence which is exerted by a covert subject (probably the oven) and which is aimed at bringing the pasta to the required state. In my opinion, there is no patient and no agent in this sentence. It merely describes a quality, the "bakeability" of the Fusilly or what.

    The sky is blue. Is it active or passive? (the true copula does not express action, only tense)
    Last edited by svartnik; 21-Jul-2009 at 19:54.

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    #8

    Thumbs up Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    The sentence says when baking happens to the pasta, it yields readily (well) to an influence which is exerted by a covert subject (probably the oven) and which is aimed at bringing the pasta to the required state. In my opinion, there is no patient and no agent in this sentence. It merely describes a quality, the "bakeability" of the Fusilly or what.
    That's a good interpretation of the process seen as neither active nor passive.

    Quote Originally Posted by svartnik View Post
    The sky is blue. Is it active or passive? (the true copula does not express action, only tense)
    Neither, as you've noticed.


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    #9

    Re: voice

    What is pseudo-intransitive? What is it?


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    #10

    Re: voice

    Quote Originally Posted by engee30 View Post
    That's a good interpretation of the process seen as neither active nor passive.
    To me the active-passive dichotomy means the grammatical S and the grammatical O swap places. Semantically nothing changes in a transformation.

    For active/passive properties, you need to have a verb that expresses action. You need to have an understood actor and receiver. As the verb's meaning determines the other two, the lack of it renders the mention of voices gratuious, in my opinion.

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