Would you mind if I opened the window?

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Raymott

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Of course I read your thread. I read all of the contributions. That yours was or wasn't authoritative wasn't of issue nor was it the issue. ;-)
No, the issue was that you thought you had to research what the dictionary actually said. I had already done that and posted it.
 

svartnik

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That wouldn't be because you're in it, would it?

Okay, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and treat your question as genuine.
No, it is because an authoritative dictionary is in it.

Soup only counts for one

It depends on what the etalon for one is.


It's a courageous move posting this list in support of your argument!

I did not provide it in favor of my argument. BTW, you are a humorous guy, Ray, are you not? ;-)
 

bhaisahab

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"Would you mind if I opened the window?" is found for the usage of the word "mind" in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. The dictionary explains that it is spoken and used when making a polite request.
In the same dictionary, "Would you mind if I open a window?" is also found for the usage of the word "mind."
Are these both acceptable and the same in meaning?
"Would you mind if I opened the window?"
"Would you mind if I open the window?"


'Do you mind if I open the window' is correct.
'Would you mind if I opened the widow' is correct.
'Would you mind if I open the window' is not correct.
'Do you mind if I opened the window' is not correct.
 

Offroad

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'Do you mind if I open the window' is correct.
'Would you mind if I opened the widow' is correct.
'Would you mind if I open the window' is not correct.
'Do you mind if I opened the window' is not correct.

Is the red sentence grammatically correct in AmE?
 

Dawood Usmani

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Is the red sentence grammatically correct in AmE?

I'm not American but I have some American friends and they are all well educated. They said 'NO' in answer to your question.
[When we have to speak, why don't we speak correctly?]
Conclusion: General consensus in this matter is that this use is not grammatical nor commonly acceptable.
Still the choice is yours....
 

svartnik

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I'm not American but I have some American friends and they are all well educated. They said 'NO' in answer to your question.
[When we have to speak, why don't we speak correctly?]
Conclusion: General consensus in this matter is that this use is not grammatical nor commonly acceptable.
Still the choice is yours....

What would be your friend's explanation then for the occurence of the present-tense form in Longman's Dictionary?
Are the guys from Longman less educated than your friends? Are they grammarians at all? Or they are engineers with a keen interest in their own mother tongue?

Finally, please explain to me why the if clause cannot house a present tense form of 'open'? Which grammatical rule would be flouted?

'Would you mind open if I open the door?' is not a conditional sentence, still less a second conditional. Why would it have to follow that grammatical pattern?

Would you mind means May I. Nothing here is dependent on something else.

http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic32380.html#121403
http://www.english-test.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7
 
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philo2009

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Philo, hi! Thanks for your comments. The problem is that I do not detect any condition in your "conditional" sentence. Consequently, as a non-native, non-educated no-body, I cannot accept your argument as true.

Well, if you'll forgive the double negative, you're certainly not a 'nobody' in this forum, Svartnik! Indeed, you demonstrate at times a level of analytical ability that frankly surpasses that of some of the native contributors. I can therefore only conclude that, as regards this particular issue, you have something of a 'blind spot', or perhaps have simply been misled by a diabolical entry in a dictionary whose editor ought to have known better (and who I would humbly recommend be taken outside and shot at dawn for letting it through!)

Given your normally sharp eye for grammatical structure and pattern, I must confess to genuine puzzlement at your contention that you "do not detect any condition" in the sentence at issue. To my mind, it is so screamingly obvious that I am almost at a loss where to start explaining it. But, I'll have a try, anyhow:

Take any sentence of the type

[[S1+would V][+if+S2+Ved]]

in which 'if' cannot be supplanted by 'whether' (i.e. where it introduces an adverbial clause), then you have perforce a conditional sentence, of the type most commonly labelled a second conditional, wherein the VP of the subordinate denotes, according to verb type, an event or state considered by the speaker to be anything ranging from relatively improbable to downright counterfactual.

Examples:

[1] I would be angry if my wife bought a diamond ring.

(i.e. in reality she does not buy diamond rings, or, at least, would be most unlikely to buy one.)

[2] Would you be angry if your wife bought a diamond ring?
[3] I would mind very much if my wife bought a diamond ring.
[4] Would you mind if your wife bought a diamond ring?
[5] Would you mind if I bought a diamond ring?

As I trust you can now see, the sentence at issue,

[6] Would you mind if I opened the window?

is structurally identical, in every conceivable respect, to [5] above and that, needless to say (perhaps, but I'll say it anyway!),

[6a] *Would you mind if I open the window?

would be every bit as ungrammatical, and for precisely the same reason, as

[1a] *I would be angry if my wife buys a diamond ring.
[2a] *Would you be angry if your wife buys a diamond ring?
[3a] *I would mind very much if my wife buys a diamond ring.
[4a] *Would you mind if your wife buys a diamond ring?
[5a] *Would you mind if I buy a diamond ring?

What, I suspect, may be causing you some confusion here is the illocutionary function of [6]. We happen, in this case, to be employing a second conditional sentence in order to make a kind of request, disguising that request in a hypothetical form that is more socially acceptable than a direct request for permission: it seeks to maintain a kind of "polite fiction" that the act of my opening the window is so highly improbable that any question as to my collocutor's potential view of/reaction to it amounts to little more than academic speculation. Yes, it is semantically equivalent (or rather, to be precise, functionally equivalent) to more direct, simple

May I open the window?

but I am sure that I hardly need point out to you of all people that most fundamental of linguistic axioms that mere similarity of meaning neither implies nor confers identity of construction. If we were to be foolish enough to reason along those lines, we would be forced to conclude that, for instance,

*May I to open the window?

must be acceptable, since it means exactly the same as

Would it be OK for me to open the window?


!

I hope that these few notes may serve to make things a little clearer.
 
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svartnik

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Philo, I do not want to go into analyzing the illocutionary force of "would you mind,"
While I fully accept your argument, I am pretty sure there are other acceptable approaches as well. The question being, who accepts them. :up: You are a grammarian, and I am a physicist. So grammar is your department more than mine. I put my hands up and defer to your better judgment.
But before I go ... there is one more thing.
I would like to ask you a few questions, if I may.

'Would you mind if I open the window?' is fine and so also is 'opened'. The second example is really a little too pedantic.

This comment was made by an English language trainer, an editor, a tutor.

What do you think this experienced grammarian had in mind when he said that? What do you think makes a language trainer say so? What do you think he meant by "pedantic"?

Now please look at Soup's comments. I hope we can agree on her excellent skills in the English language.

In answer to your question, yes, both "open the window" and "opened the window" are acceptable English.

The Standard (i.e., formal language, including spoken and written English) houses a present tense verb. The reason being, a polite request is asked before the act takes place, so a present tense verb is used:

  • Would you mind if I open the window?


The spoken-form houses a past tense verb. The reason, analogy: elsewhere in the grammar there is a similar structure, would + if + past tense (See type 2 conditionals):

What do you make of her comments?

Next one. CalifJim is a grammarian, one of the top dogs in Englishforums. This is his piece he said in this matter.

"Would you mind if I opened the window?"
"Would you mind if I open the window?"

Both are quite acceptable. The meaning is identical. Some people believe the use of "opened" makes the request a little more polite, but I don't detect any real difference.

englishforums.com

Lastly,

spoken used when making a polite request:
I wonder if you could help me.
I'd be grateful if you would send me further details.
Would you mind if I open a window?
If you would just wait for a moment, I'll try to find your papers.

if - Definition from Longman English Dictionary Online

To what do you put down the different opinions expressed in the above reliable sources? Are there other approaches than the conditional in this matter?
Convince me, but above all the OP, that they are all wrong and only you are correct.

Thanks! svartnik
 

engee30

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I've done some research and got baffled a bit. It took me some time, but I think it was worth it. The conclusion is that it is true that the construction Would you mind if... functions as a request, and actually it doesn't require the true conditional structure - would if + past tense.
That said, I'd personally recommend applying the true conditional structure, for such usage is commonly accepted and I'm sure you'll find it in all grammars, I mean those by the foremost publishers.
So to me, it's now a matter of recommendation rather than saying which is right and which is wrong.
I'd always go for would you mind if + past tense if asked about which structure to use.
 

svartnik

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I've done some research and got baffled a bit. It took me some time, but I think it was worth it. The conclusion is that it is true that the construction Would you mind if... functions as a request, and actually it doesn't require the true conditional structure - would if + past tense.

Not all if's imply condition. The sentence at hand is a case in point.
How did you arrive at your conclusion, eng? What did you read? How did you conduct your research?

If you will eat so much chocolate, it is hardly surprising you are so fat. -- is the situ in the matrix contingent on the situ in the protasis (if clause)? Surely not.
 

engee30

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How did you arrive at your conclusion, eng? What did you read? How did you conduct your research?

I found the crucial information on the issue in Cambridge and Collins grammars, the former providing some good explanation of the usage.
Sorry, but I was wrong all along, guys. :cry:
 

Offroad

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Are these both acceptable and the same in meaning?
"Would you mind if I opened the window?"
"Would you mind if I open the window?"

Both are possible.

I found the crucial information on the issue in Cambridge and Collins grammars, the former providing some good explanation of the usage.
Sorry, but I was wrong all along, guys. :cry:

... in AmE both are accepted by some, but are not necessarily acceptable to all.;-)
:up:
 

svartnik

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Sorry, but I was wrong all along, guys.
23.gif
16.gif


I found the crucial information on the issue in Cambridge and Collins grammars, the former providing some good explanation of the usage.

Excerpt the passages, eng, please.

37.gif
 

chellamuthu

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Being a prescriptivist suggests having absolute authority in the English language to me, eng. No offence, but who are you?
Okay, I rephrase my answer and say, both are commonly used by educated people.

PS: and please ... do not ... underline ... my name, please. I can see very well. ;)
Yes! Svartnik seems to be correct. But I think second one will be more appropriate.
chellamuthu
 

chellamuthu

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I found the crucial information on the issue in Cambridge and Collins grammars, the former providing some good explanation of the usage.
Sorry, but I was wrong all along, guys. :cry:

Mr.NG30!

If give website address to 'Cambridge and Coiilins grammars' it will be helpful to me. Please help me.
with regards,
chellamuthu
 

engee30

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Excerpt the passages, eng, please.

37.gif
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Would you mind and do you mind

Would you mind and do you mind are most commonly followed by if when permission is being requested. With would you mind the tense in the if-clause may be past (more formal) or present (more informal):

A: Do you mind if I take my shoes off?
B: No.

Would you mind if one of our representatives comes and gives you a free demonstration?

[referring to the tape-recorder being used to record the conversation]
Would you mind if I turned this off just for a few minutes?

Note that the appropriate reply to give permission is no, not yes. Mind means 'object', so saying no means 'I do not object to what you wish to do'.

A: Do you mind if I sit here?
B: No, not at all. Please do.


Less frequently, an object pronoun or noun phrase and a verb in the -ing form may follow mind:

Would you mind us coming too?
Do you mind me sitting in on the interview?
Do you mind this towel being used?


In formal contexts, a possessive pronoun may be used instead of an object pronoun:
'Do you mind my smoking?' he asked. 'Oh, not at all, sir.'

The do-construction with object pronoun and -ing form may be used to check that something is permitted or acceptable which is already happening or has already happened:

Do you mind me coming round?
(could be spoken when the person is already at the place referred to)

Cambridge® Grammar of English
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Asking Permission

indirect ways

[...] A more polite way is to say Do you mind if...? or Would you mind if...?

Do you mind if we speak a bit of German?
Would you mind if I just ask you some routine questions?


Again, these expressions are shortened in very informal situations:
Mind if I bring my bike in? [...]

Collins® Cobuild Grammar Booster
----------------------------------------------------------------
As you can read, Svartnik, it's more formal (and to me personally, more acceptable) when you use a past tense with the construction would you mind if. :cool: But I am no authority on English grammar, of course. :)
 

svartnik

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But I am no authority on English grammar, of course. :)

Nobody is, eng. Still we are bickering here all the time. :-D
And now I will go and kick myself.

The way I see the difference is:

The present form is used to indicate that you are considering the possibility of opening, but could be dissuaded if there is an objection.


The subjunctive past form indicates that you are more intent on opening the window. It gives the slight impression that you don't expect any objections to the idea.

:up:

EDIT: Quite the contrary! I mean the use of subjunctive past and indicative forms.
 
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philo2009

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I have no difficulty at all in accepting that a sufficiently noticeable proportion of native speakers currently accept

? Would you mind if I open the window?

as being at least as good as classically correct

Would you mind if I opened the window?

(if not, in terms of 'naturalness', perhaps even preferable even in some cases) as to warrant its inclusion in some guides to English usage, just as I have no difficulty in accepting - with however much distaste - that a sufficiently noticeable proportion of native speakers currently accept the hideously hypercorrect

*Between you and I,...

(I trust you'll forgive the asterisk!)

in preference even to classically correct

Between you and me,...

as to warrant its inclusion (accompanied by a decidely dodgy attempt at formal justification) in no less "august" a publication than the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language - the same one, incidentally, that proposes the lunatic idea of reclassifying subordinating conjunctions as prepositions!

But I simply refuse to believe, until such time as I am presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that those who prefer the former constitute a majority in either case (and even then I reserve the right to balk a little!).

To tolerate as a possible alternative is one thing. To advocate as the only correct form - when the construction is supported, not by analogy with any standard English sentence pattern, but rather by only the empty, arbitrary fiat that, when a sentence becomes functional, it ceases somehow to be subject to the normal laws of syntax - is quite another!

I wonder who dreamed that one up...
 
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philo2009

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Not all if's imply condition.

You are quite correct, Svartnik, and I hope that I have nowhere argued otherwise. Whether an if-sentence constitutes a true conditional sentence is determined primarily by its structure.

Some if-sentences indeed do not conform to any of the four standard conditional paradigms (zero, 1st, 2nd or 3rd conditionals - I'm sure you're sufficiently familiar with them that I may dispense with examples) or at least to one of a number of minor variations of them. One would be

A: I tell you, Peter was smoking when I saw him.
B: Well, if he was smoking, it was only because his nerves were so frayed. You shouldn't get angry with him for it!

The if-clause here, rather than specifying a necessary condition for the truth of the main clause (the essential requirement, needless to say, of any conditional sentence), simply asserts the contents of the clause as a provisional assumption, one which, for the sake of argument at least, is implicitly accepted as factual for present purposes. (It is not, to extent whatever, being considered as a hypothetical basis for inference, unlike even the plain indicative zero conditional protasis of 'If water boils, it turns to steam').

You will further note that it has a distinctive structure/phraseology

[[If+S+past ind.VP], [it is (only) because S+past ind.VP]]

that would enable us quite easily - even if context failed to permit this -to differentiate it from a true conditional.

The sentence originally at issue here,

Would you mind if I opened the door?

on the other hand, as I believe I demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt in my earlier post, most certainly does qualify, on both structural and semantic grounds, as a paradigmatic hypothetical conditional. It simply happens to be one that additionally serves a functional purpose.
 
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