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    #1

    Can I leave out "that"?

    Father said that time is money and that one must be punctual.


    According to an English grammar book published in Japan, "that" after "said" can be left out, but "that" after "and" cannot in the above case.


    The grammar book was not written by a native speaker of English.
    Therefore, I would like to confirm with native speakers if the above is true.

  1. konungursvia's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: Can I leave out "that"?

    The rules are not as clear as you imagine. Leaving them out sounds fairly normal, but leaving out the first is clearer than leaving out the second, so in that sense your book is correct. You can, however, pause for a comma instead of the second "that" and people will still understand you perfectly.

    I prefer leaving both out, or having both in.

  2. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: Can I leave out "that"?

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    The rules are not as clear as you imagine. Leaving them out sounds fairly normal, but leaving out the first is clearer than leaving out the second, so in that sense your book is correct. You can, however, pause for a comma instead of the second "that" and people will still understand you perfectly.

    I prefer leaving both out, or having both in.

    Yes, I would vote for that as well, both out or both in.


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    #4

    Re: Can I leave out "that"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snappy View Post
    Father said that time is money and that one must be punctual.


    According to an English grammar book published in Japan, "that" after "said" can be left out, but "that" after "and" cannot in the above case.


    The grammar book was not written by a native speaker of English.
    Therefore, I would like to confirm with native speakers if the above is true.

    It is possible to leave out "that" both times in your example sentence and the sentence will still be grammatically correct. One may advise that it's better to not omit the second "that", but this does not mean it is incorrect to omit it. Leaving them in, or leaving one of them in, may sound better to some speakers. It's hard to say what one would say in spontaneous conversation.

    When "that" introduces a noun clause used as an object, it is possible to omit "that".

    that time is money -a noun clause introduced by "that"

    that one must be punctual. - a noun clause introduced by "that"

    When a verb that we recognize as a mental process is followed by a noun clause introduced by "that" it is possible to omit "that".

    Here are some examples of other verbs where this is possible: think, hear, tell, feel, dream, wish

    Here's a webpage that outlines what I've just said. Scroll down to where it says "Noun clauses which begin with that:"

    Here's a list of verbs that can be followed by a "that" clause, which is a type of noun clause. Notice how they all are a type of mental function.

    Noun clauses

    Common verbs followed by that-Clauses
    Assume that - Believe that - Discover that - Dream that -
    Guess that - Hear that - Hope that - Know that - Learn that -
    Notice that - Predict that - Prove that - Realize that -
    Suppose that - Suspect that - Think that –
    Agree that - Conclude that - Decide that - Demonstrate that -
    Doubt that - Fear that - Feel that - Figure out that - Find out that -
    Forget that - Imagine that - Indicate that - Observe that - Presume
    that - Pretend that - Read that - Recall that - Recognize that - Regret
    that - Remember - Reveal that - Show that - Teach that - Understand
    that - …


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    #5

    Re: Can I leave out "that"?

    The THAT in both cases is a subordinating conjunction that introduces a finite clause (sentence). When the conjunction is left out, the subject of the sentence it introduces is usually a personal pronoun, as in:

    Pop said I should stay and she should go."

    Both of those THAT sentences, incidentally, are direct objects of the verb "said."

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    #6

    Re: Can I leave out "that"?

    Quote Originally Posted by gabber View Post
    The THAT in both cases is a subordinating conjunction that introduces a finite clause (sentence). When the conjunction is left out, the subject of the sentence it introduces is usually a personal pronoun, as in:

    Pop said I should stay and she should go."

    Both of those THAT sentences, incidentally, are direct objects of the verb "said."
    Could you tell me, of the three patterns, which is the most common and which is the least used?
    said that... and that...
    said (not that)... and (no that)...
    said (not that)... and that...

    Thank you in advance.

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